Keep on the Borderland and no healing...?

DarkCrisis said:

Perhaps “heroic” is a better word. Having to run home after 1 hour of dungeon delving doesn’t feel very heroic.
Though again the real heroism comes later, I get it.

Click to expand...

Sorry for any confusion with my sequel to the original adventure.

It seems like its one of those expectation things. The early modules were intended to not be "heroic", per se, but to balance risk with reward - do we continue to push on further into the dungeon, risking death, or retreat to heal and take what we can. The game was often filled with those types of decisions, particularly at low levels.

I've seen some games severely limit "rests" (using the Ad&d term, not the 5e) by not allowing them in dungeons - where there is usually a 1 in 6 chance of wandering monsters, and its not very comfortable to get a good night's sleep. In that kind of set up, you basically have daylight hours to explore, then retreat to the Inn, then repeat. When we played 40 years ago, we rested in dungeons, dealt with the wandering monsters, and tried not to leave the dungeon until it was "done". We lean to the former now (repeated delves, if necessary).

I'm running OSE Advanced, and my experience is the same. We're running through Border Watch set in Greyhawk, and the party of three 4th/5th level characters are being battered around by Orcs/Orogs and an Ogre or two. They refuse to pay hirelings/henchmen. They have also started at 12k xp and studiously ignored dungeon delving, which is where the coin and magic items usually are. So they're pretty basic, still. If they survive Cragson Mine and the caves (which I have my doubts), they'll end up stronger, but still need to break out of that "the party is only PCs, and we hoard our gold and don't hire help."

DarkCrisis said:

Perhaps “heroic” is a better word. Having to run home after 1 hour of dungeon delving doesn’t feel very heroic.
Though again the real heroism comes later, I get it.

Click to expand...

I might have missed seeing it earlier, are there 6-9 party members (or hirelings/NPCs to bring it to that number), and have men at arms come along even if it is a big party if they seem incompetent?

Have you made any adjustments based on the player ability?

(As per post #31 above).

Cadence said:

I might have missed seeing it earlier, are there 6-9 party members (or hirelings/NPCs to bring it to that number), and have men at arms come along even if it is a big party if they seem incompetent?

Have you made any adjustments based on the player ability?

(As per post #31 above).

Click to expand...

5-6 players plus 2 Hirelings (Dwarf and Cleric). (1 player currently in Paris)

Party roster (after current deaths)
Thief
Wiz
Halfling
Fighter
Bard
Dwarf Hireling
Cleric Hireling

They've actually been doing pretty well combat wise. My issue is just they do well for 1-2 combat then have to trek back to the Keep. Which yeah its just a couple of random encounter rolls, resupply, then back it.

Maybe once they realize they can seal off areas of the cleared out gob/hobgob areas maybe they will just sleep there

Cruentus said:

I have the TSR Silver Anniversary Edition Return to Keep on the Borderlands (Ad&d) by John D Rateliff (1999). Probably part of the misunderstanding on my part, and that it has likely been edited/changed over time.

Click to expand...

Yes, it’s different. It’s a sequel in both setting and in product, incorporating changes based on the caves repopulating after the events of the first KotB module and changes based on how to present an introductory adventure for both players and DMs. And I believe it is superior in both ways to B2.

DarkCrisis said:

Perhaps “heroic” is a better word. Having to run home after 1 hour of dungeon delving doesn’t feel very heroic.
Though again the real heroism comes later, I get it.

Click to expand...

DarkCrisis said:

They've actually been doing pretty well combat wise. My issue is just they do well for 1-2 combat then have to trek back to the Keep. Which yeah its just a couple of random encounter rolls, resupply, then back it.

Maybe once they realize they can seal off areas of the cleared out gob/hobgob areas maybe they will just sleep there

Click to expand...

Regardless of the adjective, what would make it feel satisfying to you? More combats before retreat? The denizens of the keep seeing them less often? Sorry if I'm being obtuse, I just feel like I don't understand the issue well enough to make a suggestion that's useful to you.

Fortunate Son said:

Regardless of the adjective, what would make it feel satisfying to you? More combats before retreat? The denizens of the keep seeing them less often? Sorry if I'm being obtuse, I just feel like I don't understand the issue well enough to make a suggestion that's useful to you.

Click to expand...

Kind of the point of the thread. Asking for advice.

And I guess I can’t explain it any differently.

DarkCrisis said:

They've actually been doing pretty well combat wise. My issue is just they do well for 1-2 combat then have to trek back to the Keep. Which yeah its just a couple of random encounter rolls, resupply, then back it.

Click to expand...

In my experience this is just part of the play loop at low levels in the old editions. Yes, after a relatively small number of combats/small amount of damage, they need to retreat and rest up. But thankfully the play mechanics are quick and simple enough that you can easily fit multiple expeditions into a single session.

Part of the benefit of gaining levels is gaining stamina to be able to go on longer expeditions with less frequent returns to town for rest and resupply. Note that the Expert set gives the rules for wilderness exploration/hex-crawling, and those rules cover 4+ level and up. In my experience that's around when PCs start being better equipped for that. At 1st-3rd level they're more dungeon raiders.

I don't see it as less heroic, but it's definitely paced less like an action movie. Which is how I often conceptualize the vastly-increased healing and recovery rates in D&D editions over time- making the game better able to represent action movie-style pacing.

Note that you don't take damage ALL that quickly if players don't resort to combat all the time and don't insist on fighting to the death. Negotiating, Reaction Rolls, Morale checks for enemies after the first casualty and after half casualties, and running away from large groups of enemies (optionally dropping food or treasure behind to deter pursuit, per those explicit rules in B/X) are all ways to mitigate the amount of fighting the party does, and hence damage it takes. In B/X monster xp is paltry compared to treasure, so being able to minimize fights except where you need or want to is a winning strategy.

overgeeked said:

Exactly. You can expand the scope of the module quite easily here. The PCs want scrolls and potions but the Keep doesn't have any, great. Along with the above, the bandits in the woods might...the hermit in the woods might...the lizardfolk in the swamp might.

Click to expand...

Also, just because they don’t have portable healing - potions and scrolls - doesn’t mean clerics and druids in the Keep can’t heal PC’s. PC’s may need to hike back to heal after a fight.

Which could mean changes at the Caves of Chaos the next day.

DarkCrisis said:

Speaking to the choir, man. But as DM I don't tell them to do anything. If they want to fight (or think it’s the only way because they dont think of trying to chat), they fight.

Click to expand...

A grizzled old veteran - lone survivor of a previous party long ago - could advise them from the tavern, with your advice.

Cruentus said:

my Silver Edition of Keep.

Click to expand...

John Rateliff’s Return to the Keep on the Borderlands (Silver Anniversary) is my favorite adventure. I ran it in 1998 and I don’t remember what of it was his versus mine, but great stuff.

Two war stories from 1998:

• Eventually the Temple and their allies and undead attacked the Keep. We played it all out. 190 rounds with dozens of monsters and NPC’s. The players led the Keep militia to victory at great cost in lives and pints of oil and yes … healing potions my version of the Keep has stockpiled.
• The PC’s made a treaty with King Haggadiah of the Goblins. The goblins got to have the whole Caves, and got a cow a week in tribute, in exchange for keeping the Caves free of other monsters and not raiding commerce and locals.