Keep on the Borderland and no healing...?

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Willie the Duck

Hero

• Jul 1, 2024

• #11

DarkCrisis said:

Diplomacy isn't their strong suit. Plus it doesn't help that they can be randomly attacked by goblins or hobgoblins assault anyone who comes through a door etc.

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I mean, the reaction tables exist for a reason. A party (perhaps one bearing gifts, even just a couple heads of your enemy) coming up to your door (instead of through it) talking about a team up to get rid of those pesky <other group> 'once and for all' might change the dynamic. Or at least (IMO) that's what the module expected.

Also that monsters might run after the first casualty, half group lost, etc. (or for AD&D-- Faced by obviously superior force, 25% of group eliminated or slain, Leader unconscious, 50%+ of group eliminated or slain, and Leader slain or deserts).

Also, as others have said, hirelings and retainers. There's enough loot to be had to hire them. Also plenty of 10' corridors where 3 fully-healed martial types can create a bottleneck (cycling out as they are injured) and everyone else be behind with spears or ranged weapons or bottles of oil, etc.

Or, if they really don't want to do this kind of stuff, well honestly that's fine. When I first started gaming, me and my friends certainly didn't play as the game developers might have intended. However, the consequence of this is that the module (and low-level TSR-era A/D&D in general) is a brutal, deadly slog. Cheaper scrolls/healing potions will mitigate this*, but overall it just moves the 'appropriate level' of any given module up. *and fortunately B/X means you aren't bursting your plate mail or training budget spending your loot on healing items.

 

Last edited: Jul 2, 2024

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Nikosandros

Golden Procrastinator

• Jul 1, 2024

• #12

B/X and B2 push for a certain style of play. If your players don't want to play this way, nothing wrong with it, but you'll have to change things a bit to make it an enjoyable experience, IMHO.

Back then, I've run B5 Horror on the Hill while using BECMI in the style of kick the door and kill the monsters. We had lot of fun doing this, but the PCs were beefed up both in stats and magical items. Full heal-up with a night rest and the monsters weren't acting strategically. It's not the only way to do it, naturally. Just an example.

 

Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero

• Jul 1, 2024

• #13

I believe what Gygax assumed was that 1) parties were enormous (12 people or so, which is why they needed callers to tell the DM what was going on) and 2) they'd further bolster their ranks by hiring everyone they could from the keep (although at some point, one would assume they'd deplete the available supply of suckers) and just action economy their way through the caves.

That said, as written, much of the caves are rough, much rougher than I think people often remember. (Good lord, why so many kobold snipers in that tree outside the cave?)

 

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David Howery

Hero

• Jul 1, 2024

• #14

one place in the Caves that would logically have healing potions /scrolls would be the evil temple... they are a bunch of clerics, and even though they're nasty and evil, they would still find it useful to have healing stuff around... of course, the temple is the last of they Caves they are likely to work through, which doesn't help with all the other ones...

 

Cadence

Legend

Supporter

• Jul 1, 2024

• #15

There have been occasions in older versions where I sent a healer (crappy in combat cleric) npc with the party.

 

Last edited: Jul 1, 2024

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David Howery

Hero

• Jul 1, 2024

• #16

Cadence said:

There have been occasions in older versions where I send a healer (crappy in combat cleric) npc with the party.

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I think that was kinda common back in the day. In my first group back in ye olde college days, we had the (rather non-serious) Church of Fred, who worshiped the great god Fred, and all the clerics were named Fred. Alas, the poor Freds left their bones in many a famous location, all the way from Hommlet to the lair of the Fire Giants....

 

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Willie the Duck

Hero

• Jul 2, 2024

• #17

David Howery said:

I think that was kinda common back in the day. In my first group back in ye olde college days, we had the (rather non-serious) Church of Fred, who worshiped the great god Fred, and all the clerics were named Fred. Alas, the poor Freds left their bones in many a famous location, all the way from Hommlet to the lair of the Fire Giants....

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Oh, the Fredmanity!

 

the Jester

Legend

• Jul 2, 2024

• #18

What's wrong with resting up for a few days or a week?

 

DarkCrisis

Reeks of Jedi

• Jul 2, 2024

• #19

the Jester said:

What's wrong with resting up for a few days or a week?

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That’s not the issue. It’s tripping out to the caves. Having 1-2 battles. Tripping back to the Keep to rest. Rinse and repeat.

I get that’s just the way at it is especially at level 1 but it’s still kind of a lame loop.

 

Celebrim

Legend

• Jul 2, 2024

• #20

DarkCrisis said:

That’s not the issue. It’s tripping out to the caves. Having 1-2 battles. Tripping back to the Keep to rest. Rinse and repeat.

I get that’s just the way at it is especially at level 1 but it’s still kind of a lame loop.

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I don't disagree with you but that is the way it is at level 1 especially given the absurd difficulty of the caves (which at best serve as Dark Souls like trial by fire for newbies with even less of a tutorial section). First level characters simply lack any staying power and 1 to 2 mass combats is as much as they can handle.

I don't think you can fix that with an 'old school' format without very much leaving the 'old school' paradigm, except by not taking B2 as anything like a good adventure or a good introduction to the game.

My experience having run B2 like three times is that getting plate mail for your front liners is a tipping point. Once you have plate mail and shields and have a few fighters that hit 2nd level, the caves go from harrowing to just grindy with simplistic rince and repeat tactics of using choke points.

Granted it took me like 10 years and a couple of tries and a lot of growing in maturity and experiencing alternate patterns of play to realize just how bad B2 was, but I'm now pretty well convinced in my opinion that it's one of the worst noobie adventures ever written (both from the perspective of playing and running it) and little keeps it going but nostalgia. It's a kitchen sink dungeon with little to recommend it. But, might be too late to do anything about it now.