Keep on the Borderland and no healing...?

Gus L

Explorer
That’s not the issue. It’s tripping out to the caves. Having 1-2 battles. Tripping back to the Keep to rest. Rinse and repeat.

I get that’s just the way at it is especially at level 1 but it’s still kind of a lame loop.
So this is one reason people have criticized B2 - it can be played as a monster zoo of endless fights. It becomes more interesting if the players don't do that and treat it as a chance to enter into schemes and negotiations. The best way to do this is actually make the monsters a bit friendlier -- and smarter.

They tend to open with parley, they always call out the entire armed force of their group when confronted etc. The humanoid groups are not stupid and don't just chill in their rooms waiting to die in small gangs. Don't let your players treat it like a monster zoo and don't let them make multiple returns to town safely in a session: vengeful humanoid gangs, rival adventurers, and forest beasties can all make that fraught - and maybe they start setting up ambushes if the PCs use the same trail again and again. More the cave dwellers should fort up and set traps, call in reinforcements or even unite if they are being worn down by adventurer raids. They may even go over to the chaos church at the point they start losing too many soldiers - and then you'll have acolytes and undead bolstering their ranks.

At first though the humanoids will want to show that they could likely wipe out the PCs (barring multiple sleeps spells) by appearing in numbers and organized ... but will want to enlist the PCs into their schemes and kill off rivals.

With older style faction rich adventures a goal as referee is to actually include fights the party can't win without schemes and allies... and Keep never really tells you this so it tends to become a monster zoo.
 

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Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
I've basically been running B/X KotBorderlands and how is the group supposed to heal?

Like the Keep doesn't sale potions or scrolls.

Today they went and had a big fight. Went back to the keep. Healed. Went back and had another fight. Went back and healed. They lost 2 party members. Though to be fair one got crit and died the other went toe to toe with a Hobgoblin Chief alone.

Even with a Cleric that can cast 1 heal a day is nice but not enough.

I've relented and said the local priests have scrolls and potions for sale but cost about 35-50 GP a piece and only have a couple each day. Though i need to research this cost.

Like I get level 1 is rough but 1 fight then back to the keep rinse and repeat is kind of lame. But I also don't want to make healing to easy.

Any advice? Just stick to 50gp healing potions?
Use henchmen and hirelings. That way injured characters can stay at the keep to recover while the rest of the gang continues.
 

"Doctor, it hurts when my players do this..."
"Tell your players not to do that anymore."

KotB was designed for a VERY different style of play than is typical these days, especially with other editions. Lots of good suggestions have been given - make adjustments to the monsters, henchmen and hirelings, provide clerics at the keep regardless of whether they were there originally, sell the PC's a few potions regardless of whether they were available at the keep originally, etc. HOWEVER, the point is that THE PLAYERS are learning absolutely nothing. THEY are not looking for alternatives or answers when they absolutely should be.

First thing they damn well should have learned by now is that just blundering in repeatedly, like bulls in a china shop and trying to smack down EVERYTHING they come across, is a lethally dangerous, and painfully protracted process. THEY AREN'T UP TO IT. If they insist that is the ONLY way for them, then they also accept the consequences of that refusal to improvise, adapt, or overcome the very obvious obstacle they insist on beating themselves to death against. That's where henchmen, hirelings, and ALTERNATIVE COMBAT strategies come in. Rather than just barge in with a battlecry they should lure the enemy OUT to where the PC's have ALL the advantages - like to doorways or cave entrances where the monsters have to bunch up and the PC's can throw lots of missiles at them, or flaming oil, or rig up traps, or whatever. ANYTHING but just the same things they've been doing that they KNOW aren't effective.

Second, stop fighting PERIOD. Try sneaking instead. STEAL the loot and AVOID the fights! Scare the monsters away instead of insisting that nobody gets out alive. BRIBE one monster group to fight FOR the PC's against another monster group, and agree to then leave the area. People might pooh-pooh diplomacy - but have they actually TRIED? It's one thing to try and fail, but another to try and fail and then never ever try it again, and still another to NOT try and then insist it'll never work or you're no good at it.

If one entrance is just impossible because it's too dangerous - LET THEM DIG A NEW ENTRANCE. Use those dwarf and gnome mining skills.

Really, these are not problems with the adventure nearly as much as they are SEVERE problems with unimaginative, and un-interactive players. It should not be the job of the DM to THROW solutions and alternatives at the players - the players should be ACTIVELY seeking out alternatives without even being prompted to do so (except by their own obvious failures of reasonable success. However, as the DM in a situation like this, perhaps the best thing to do is throw in a friendly NPC observer - a tavern patron who has now WATCHED the PC's come back to the keep repeatedly with their butts dragging. They can then offer some friendly advice, "Ya know, there's a lot of swords for hire here in the keep - even in this very room. They might fight pretty cheap and help you make som headway in your quest." "Have ya thought about going outside the keep to another nearby village and hiring a cleric to come with you, or just have them wait here in the keep to speed up your recovery?" "I was thinkin' ya might try the SNEAKY approach. Once you steal their best loot, a group of monsters like those might decide there's better places to do their raidin'."

It's all still the players own choices what to do, but if they keep being STUPID about their approach to the adventure, then you can at least righteously gripe back at them that you've given them all these different ideas and the only one they choose is the one they KNOW doesn't work.
 

DarkCrisis

Reeks of Jedi
"Doctor, it hurts when my players do this..."
"Tell your players not to do that anymore."

KotB was designed for a VERY different style of play than is typical these days, especially with other editions. Lots of good suggestions have been given - make adjustments to the monsters, henchmen and hirelings, provide clerics at the keep regardless of whether they were there originally, sell the PC's a few potions regardless of whether they were available at the keep originally, etc. HOWEVER, the point is that THE PLAYERS are learning absolutely nothing. THEY are not looking for alternatives or answers when they absolutely should be.

First thing they damn well should have learned by now is that just blundering in repeatedly, like bulls in a china shop and trying to smack down EVERYTHING they come across, is a lethally dangerous, and painfully protracted process. THEY AREN'T UP TO IT. If they insist that is the ONLY way for them, then they also accept the consequences of that refusal to improvise, adapt, or overcome the very obvious obstacle they insist on beating themselves to death against. That's where henchmen, hirelings, and ALTERNATIVE COMBAT strategies come in. Rather than just barge in with a battlecry they should lure the enemy OUT to where the PC's have ALL the advantages - like to doorways or cave entrances where the monsters have to bunch up and the PC's can throw lots of missiles at them, or flaming oil, or rig up traps, or whatever. ANYTHING but just the same things they've been doing that they KNOW aren't effective.

Second, stop fighting PERIOD. Try sneaking instead. STEAL the loot and AVOID the fights! Scare the monsters away instead of insisting that nobody gets out alive. BRIBE one monster group to fight FOR the PC's against another monster group, and agree to then leave the area. People might pooh-pooh diplomacy - but have they actually TRIED? It's one thing to try and fail, but another to try and fail and then never ever try it again, and still another to NOT try and then insist it'll never work or you're no good at it.

If one entrance is just impossible because it's too dangerous - LET THEM DIG A NEW ENTRANCE. Use those dwarf and gnome mining skills.

Really, these are not problems with the adventure nearly as much as they are SEVERE problems with unimaginative, and un-interactive players. It should not be the job of the DM to THROW solutions and alternatives at the players - the players should be ACTIVELY seeking out alternatives without even being prompted to do so (except by their own obvious failures of reasonable success. However, as the DM in a situation like this, perhaps the best thing to do is throw in a friendly NPC observer - a tavern patron who has now WATCHED the PC's come back to the keep repeatedly with their butts dragging. They can then offer some friendly advice, "Ya know, there's a lot of swords for hire here in the keep - even in this very room. They might fight pretty cheap and help you make som headway in your quest." "Have ya thought about going outside the keep to another nearby village and hiring a cleric to come with you, or just have them wait here in the keep to speed up your recovery?" "I was thinkin' ya might try the SNEAKY approach. Once you steal their best loot, a group of monsters like those might decide there's better places to do their raidin'."

It's all still the players own choices what to do, but if they keep being STUPID about their approach to the adventure, then you can at least righteously gripe back at them that you've given them all these different ideas and the only one they choose is the one they KNOW doesn't work.

Speaking to the choir, man. But as DM I don't tell them to do anything. If they want to fight (or think its the only way because they dont think of trying to chat), they fight.

Of course it doesnt help that like the Goblins and Hobgoblins attack anything in sight. Perhaps the Orcs will be nicer.
 


Cadence

Legend
Supporter
Speaking to the choir, man. But as DM I don't tell them to do anything. If they want to fight (or think its the only way because they dont think of trying to chat), they fight.

Of course it doesnt help that like the Goblins and Hobgoblins attack anything in sight. Perhaps the Orcs will be nicer.
Do the Goblins and Hobgoblins need to attack anything in sight?
 


Do the Goblins and Hobgoblins need to attack anything in sight?
The Goblins in Cave D are cowardly, and will try to avoid fighting, retreating further into their cave, until they hit the Hobgoblin area whom they are allied with. The Hobgoblin description says they will fire a volley of arrows (the hobgoblins) as soon as they see the PCs. So the PCs would have to parley or try to talk to the goblins before they were attacked by the Hobs. At least after a brief read of my Silver Edition of Keep.
 

DarkCrisis

Reeks of Jedi
The Goblins in Cave D are cowardly, and will try to avoid fighting, retreating further into their cave, until they hit the Hobgoblin area whom they are allied with. The Hobgoblin description says they will fire a volley of arrows (the hobgoblins) as soon as they see the PCs. So the PCs would have to parley or try to talk to the goblins before they were attacked by the Hobs. At least after a brief read of my Silver Edition of Keep.

I'd have to check my copy but I believe the Gobs are watching the entrance and attack anyone who comes in. Same with the Hobs in their area.
 

Pg 41 (Cave D) of my copy:

“However, the goblins are rather cowardly and must make morale checks before advancing to defend their lair; failure indicates that they nervously hold their positions and hope the intruders go the other way.”

It also says in the beginning of the Cave D section that 20 years ago adventurers wiped out most of the goblins, and they have recently teamed up with the hobgoblins. That could cause these goblins to not want to antagonize the PCs and cause the rest of them to be killed. I’d likely have them appear shaken, nervous, and barely able to hold their weapons as some dropped theirs and run for the exits, or try to hide in corners. Or if the PCs advance, hold out their hands in a ‘stop’ motion and say something (in broken common?, goblin?).

If the PCs still go on swords swinging, I got nothing.

Of course, as you know, there is nothing stopping the other denizens from seeing the PCs coming and going, knowing they’ve attacked various groups, and try to recruit them to attack the same group, or a different one. Maybe if they see that the denizens can and will negotiate, they might try it.
 

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