Looking for D&D-like alternatives to D&D 5e

I can't give a comprehensive answer from experience like Justice & Rule did, but based on what I've seen of it so far, DC20 is the new game I'm aware of which sounds most like it might fit your needs.

DCC might also work if you run it using a grid, but given the desire for Neo-Trade style I suspect the swinginess and randomness might be too much.

The criterion I think I'm most wary of is wanting it to be well designed and balanced for high level play. I think games which are actually robustly tested at high level and well designed for it are pretty rare. Something like Pathfinder or 4E are the most likely games to be able to clear that hurdle.

I think a modified 4e Essentials could be doable.

What I do:

• Reduce the number of options. (Figther, Thief, War Priest, Mage, with potential for Elementalist, Hunter/Scout, Berserker, Skald, Cavalier, Hexblade/Binder etc if the players really need more options)
• Remove the Feats ( too fiddly for what they bring at the table)
• Use a lot of minions (1 hp monsters) and the monsters from MM3, Monster Vault and Threat. Use moral rolls to finish the combats quickly once the tougher foes are done.

Blue said:

DM

1. Neo-Trad DMing style.
2. 2.5-3 hours weeknight sessions. Just want to play.
3. Doesn't want 5e any more. Sees lots of cracks, including some deep ones like challenging high level parties without it being super swingy and balance between classes with 1-3 encounters per day.
4. The do not want OSR.
5. Enjoy tactical grid combat and it's a requirement. But can't be slow and take up most of a 2.5-3 hour session.
6. Mostly looking at MCDM, DC20, Daggerheart, Tales of the Valiant, and if I'm to pitch another game will need supporting points (from this list) why it really fits.

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Not to put a damper on your DM, but hitting all of those bullet points together will be a challenge.

If the DM is soured on the cracks of 5e, especially ones around rest balance and high level parties, then I don't think any of the "5e-likes" (DC20, TotV, A5E) are going to hit the mark. It's possible MCDM might, since I think it's supposed to be a bit more 4e-like.

I feel like Daggerheart might be the best fit, although the rules will probably continue mutating a bit as playesting continues.

Blue said:

Folks, just a quick calibration.

DM

1. Neo-Trad DMing style.
2. 2.5-3 hours weeknight sessions. Just want to play.
3. Doesn't want 5e any more. Sees lots of cracks, including some deep ones like challenging high level parties without it being super swingy and balance between classes with 1-3 encounters per day.
4. The do not want OSR.
5. Enjoy tactical grid combat and it's a requirement. But can't be slow and take up most of a 2.5-3 hour session.
6. Mostly looking at MCDM, DC20, Daggerheart, Tales of the Valiant, and if I'm to pitch another game will need supporting points (from this list) why it really fits.

Various Players

1. Need a straightforward game. That's does not mean rules light, but just one where a new player who reads the rules once can understand their options.
2. Character creation/advancement: No trap options/feat taxes. No need to pre-build for a bunch of levels. Limited places to shoot yourself in the foot. Non-optimized characters need to be viable.

I see lots of great recommendations for games, but I'm trying to find something that threads some specific requirements that vary between the group. If you could limit suggestions to ones that will fulfill these that will help. And if suggesting existing systems, please give me ammunition about why those games would be a better fit than the ones the DM is currently looking at.

Thanks!

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I would suggest, again, Castles and Crusades by Troll Lord Games. It is very straightforward and was designed to feel like 1e/2e but with d20 rule base.

Your other options would be Level Up by EN Publishing. It is really good and fixes a lot of 5e cracks.

Finally, you should really look at Cypher System by Monte Cook Games. It is a very straightforward system that has been expanded into multiple genres. I LOVED "The Strange" which was a setting that allowed you to pull in any potential world or setting.

Tales and Chronicles said:

I think a modified 4e Essentials could be doable.

What I do:

• Reduce the number of options. (Figther, Thief, War Priest, Mage, with potential for Elementalist, Hunter/Scout, Berserker, Skald, Cavalier, Hexblade/Binder etc if the players really need more options)
• Remove the Feats ( too fiddly for what they bring at the table)
• Use a lot of minions (1 hp monsters) and the monsters from MM3, Monster Vault and Threat. Use moral rolls to finish the combats quickly once the tougher foes are done.

Click to expand...

It is very doable. But, like all things, it comes down to a matter of preference and meeting the needs of all involved.

TwoSix said:

Not to put a damper on your DM, but hitting all of those bullet points together will be a challenge.

If the DM is soured on the cracks of 5e, especially ones around rest balance and high level parties, then I don't think any of the "5e-likes" (DC20, TotV, A5E) are going to hit the mark. It's possible MCDM might, since I think it's supposed to be a bit more 4e-like.

I feel like Daggerheart might be the best fit, although the rules will probably continue mutating a bit as playesting continues.

Click to expand...

Yeah, this kind of hits on the problems I was having recommending everything else. The 5E-ish games are still going to have similar if not the same conceptions and ideas. Hard to say they wouldn't get bogged down in the same problems.

With MCDM and Daggerheart, I am excited for both games (the former a bit more than the latter, I think, but both look interesting!) but they are in such early development it's really hard to recommend them to play anything long-term. Who knows how balance changes, mechanics changes, etc, might change what you chose and force you to re-spec?

For me, it sounds like most of your group is interested in something similar to 4E without exactly being 4E. That's basically PF2 in a nutshell.

It ain't what you play - it's how you play it.

The combination of what feel to me like really tight play time frames and grid based combat seems kind of hard, but I'd at least suggest (as someone did upthread) giving Shadow of the Weird Wizard a look (even it is a little darker than I like but not as bad as its predecessor).

"Crunchy, tactical, on a grid" and "plays fast" is not something I've honestly found yet. Seriously. Every game that supports the first half of that equation only vaguely ever brushes past the second half when the entire party really dives in and does the homework to know what their characters can/should be doing on their turn.

Shadow of the Demon Lord/Weird Wizard does really sound like one of the best options. Warhammer would be a strong contender, too, but I'm less familiar with how quickly it plays; it may be a slog just in different ways.

That said, you can take the Combat chapter of 5E and literally drop it into Castles & Crusades, Shadowdark, Knave, and a lot of OSR games as-is, with little or no work, and therefore make those games a bit a more tactical/grid-focused. Plus you're ignoring a lot of the stuff that seems to be problematic for your group, which is in the way class abilities, spells, and feats all interact with the combat system. Those games all play SUPER FAST, and are built for modding, so the player who's looking for a system "as-is" can get over themselves by having those games as-is and just dropping the 5E Combat chapter on top. It works "as-is".

If "crunchy, tactical" doesn't require the "grid" part, then you have a lot more options for games that are fast but have tactical options. Fabula Ultima, The One Ring, and a few others do great stuff with options like that. And play a hell of a lot faster because everything in the game isn't dialed into creating rules exceptions.

For Crunchy, Tactical, and Plays Fast you could look into Mythras or similar BRP derived games.

For Crunchy, Tactical, and On a Grid you could look into Pathfinder 2e or 4e d&d.

For Tactical, On a Grid, and Plays Fast you could look into Basic D&D or other OSR retroclones.

You cannot and will not get all four out of any game on the market. You and your group will need to settle on a Good Enough game, and pick where you're compromising.