Keep on the Borderland and no healing...?

overgeeked said:

It’s what the module says they do.

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DarkCrisis said:

I'd have to check my copy but I believe the Gobs are watching the entrance and attack anyone who comes in. Same with the Hobs in their area.

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Going with (I think) the 2nd printing as reprinted in the Goodman edition, it does say the goblins will attack right away and are guarding the door (as they yell "Hey Rube!" in goblin.

• "If they are being soundly defeated by intruders, the goblins will attempt to hide or flee..."
• I didn't see where in F it said the Hobgoblins immediately attacked (they will "immediately rush to the entry" though). "The hobgoblins are fairly smart."

It also says:

• "[Y]ou will notice that the details are left in your hands. This allows you to personalize the scenario, and suit it to what you and your players will find most enjoyable."
• If there are fewer than six players then give them advice and let them hire men-at-arms (it's designed for 6-9 characters).
• Give the players a magic dagger or some magic arrows and at least one potion of healing (family bequests to aid them).
• "The DM should be careful to give the player characters a reasonable chance for survival. If your players tend to be a bit rash and unthinking, it might be better to allow them to have a few men-at-arms along even if the party is large, and they actually don't attempt to hire such mercenaries."
• "The DM is also a designer of the situations and must bear in mind the abilities of his or her players. It is the job of the DM to see that the situations and characters balance. If things are too difficult, the players will become discouraged; too easy and they will become bored."
• "Ransoming Prisoners: Organized tribes can optionally be allowed to take player characters prisoner, freeing one to return to the KEEP in order to bring a ransom back..."
• "Tribal Alliance and Warfare: You might allow characters to somehow become aware that there is a constant skirmishing going on between the goblins and hobgoblins on one side and the orcs, sometimes with gnoll allies, on the other...."

If making the goblins blindly attack makes the game not fun, it certainly seems to give outs for that.

Cruentus said:

The Goblins in Cave D are cowardly, and will try to avoid fighting, retreating further into their cave, until they hit the Hobgoblin area whom they are allied with. The Hobgoblin description says they will fire a volley of arrows (the hobgoblins) as soon as they see the PCs. So the PCs would have to parley or try to talk to the goblins before they were attacked by the Hobs. At least after a brief read of my Silver Edition of Keep.

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From my copy:

Cruentus said:

At least after a brief read of my Silver Edition of Keep.

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Is that the 2nd edition revisit to the Keep?

Cruentus said:

Of course, as you know, there is nothing stopping the other denizens from seeing the PCs coming and going, knowing they’ve attacked various groups, and try to recruit them to attack the same group, or a different one. Maybe if they see that the denizens can and will negotiate, they might try it.

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This seems like a great idea.

I have the TSR Silver Anniversary Edition Return to Keep on the Borderlands (Ad&d) by John D Rateliff (1999). Probably part of the misunderstanding on my part, and that it has likely been edited/changed over time.

@DarkCrisis My version does not have any of the information that yours does, and isn’t formatted in the same way. Not that it might not be in there somewhere, after only a cursory glance.

My intro to Cave D: Goblin Lair also says that the evil clerics consider the goblins a minor threat and so have not attacked them, but the goblins know it is only a matter of time. So this version sets up natural faction play, at least here.

The Hobgoblins here have also recently come from Cave F, which was recently attacked by skeletons and zombies sent from the the Hidden Temple. The Hobgoblins might even intervene if they see the PCs don’t represent the evil temple, and try to parlay, having recently been attacked themselves.

overgeeked said:

It’s what the module says they do.

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Why would what the module says trump what YOU want for your game, especially if it only creates problems? It's true, modules should not be giving DM's BAD suggestions for how to present the adventure to players, but that module also doesn't know the DM, the players, the kind of PC's being played, the NUMBER of PC's being played, what kind of playing style anyone involved has, etc. But you know who would have that information? The DM.

I'm not actually fixing blame - I haven't been there to see either side of what's been happening. No matter what MY perspective is, you were actually there and know better than I do. This is just a response to what I'm reading here. There are those DM's who think they're not PERMITTED to interfere with any die roll, any written text in an adventure, etc. They're just along for the ride, even more so than the players, because they believe they must not take sides IN ANY WAY. Fate handles the end results and as DM they're just the messenger. But if that's not the DM philosophy at work here, then it's highly questionable why the DM just unflinchingly follows the adventure notes that say, "These guys will just attack everything." If you follow that advice as DM and then turn around and say, "Hey, this advice is causing problems. What am I supposed to do?" the obvious answer is to stop following that advice, or that notation in the adventure.

If an adventure you're following appears to be a bad fit for whatever reason (including the players just keep doing the same unimaginative stuff over and over and over) then change the adventure so that it DOES fit. Players are not powerless to change the conditions of the test. D&D isn't all just bull-headed combat. But neither is the DM powerless to change the conditions. D&D isn't just present the written adventure without factoring in YOUR game's specific considerations, especially when your very complaint is that it's not working AS-WRITTEN.

Cruentus said:

I have the TSR Silver Anniversary Edition Return to Keep on the Borderlands (Ad&d) by John D Rateliff (1999). Probably part of the misunderstanding on my part, and that it has likely been edited/changed over time.

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Return to the Keep on the Borderlands is a sequel, not a reprinting. The caves are stocked differently, and many of the interactions between factions have been altered significantly. For instance, the bit you quoted about adventurers nearly wiping out the gobbos 20 years prior is referring to the presumed outcome of original module.

@DarkCrisis I'm becoming a little confused on what issue you're concerned about. Are you not liking the game mechanics wrt low-level healing, or are you unhappy with the linear mindset of your players? Those are two very different issues with very different solutions.

Fortunate Son said:

Return to the Keep on the Borderlands is a sequel, not a reprinting. The caves are stocked differently, and many of the interactions between factions have been altered significantly. For instance, the bit you quoted about adventurers nearly wiping out the gobbos 20 years prior is referring to the presumed outcome of original module.

@DarkCrisis I'm becoming a little confused on what issue you're concerned about. Are you not liking the game mechanics wrt low-level healing, or are you unhappy with the linear mindset of your players? Those are two very different issues with very different solutions.

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Just saying it doesn't feel very much like an adventure when it 1-2 fights then back to town. I can see why a lot of people gave starting groups a wand of healing or whatever. Not that I plan to do that. I'd rather have a money sink which seems to always be an issue. Buying (cheap) potions and scrolls seems a good way to deal with both.

@DarkCrisis What is it that makes a module feel like an adventure to you? Being able to complete it without returning to a home base?

I'm not trying to denigrate your displeasure with how your game is going, just trying to understand the cause.

Fortunate Son said:

@DarkCrisis What is it that makes a module feel like an adventure to you? Being able to complete it without returning to a home base?

I'm not trying to denigrate your displeasure with how your game is going, just trying to understand the cause.

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Perhaps “heroic” is a better word. Having to run home after 1 hour of dungeon delving doesn’t feel very heroic.
Though again the real heroism comes later, I get it.

DarkCrisis said:

Perhaps “heroic” is a better word. Having to run home after 1 hour of dungeon delving doesn’t feel very heroic.
Though again the real heroism comes later, I get it.

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To me heroism is not a necessary component of adventure, and the Keep is certainly not based on any modern concept of a hero.