D&D 2E On AD&D 2E

Reynard said:

I think the trade off is in speed and fluidity of play. Later editions complexity in both characters and combat rules inevitably slow things down.

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So I just made a new character for 2e. Rolling ability scores- call it 1-2 minutes as I wanted to make sure my DM saw the rolls before I even touched the dice (he said he didn't care, I joked about rolling three 17's, then rolled 2 17's back to back and the last roll was a hard 18: 6, 6, 6, 1 on four dice!).

Deciding on race. Went with Elf. Adjusted ability scores. Deliberated on cheesy subrace, decided against it because I don't ignore hindrances or penalties. Wrote down racial abliities. Call this 5 minutes.

Decided on class. Fighter. Time taken about two seconds, lol.

Wrote down Fighter class abilities- what Fighter class abilities?

Decided on Kit- Gladiator. 2 seconds. Chose what weapon I wanted to specialize in. Waffled about asking about the long sword (the superior choice), decided I trusted my DM, went with short sword. 2 minutes.

Wrote down all numerical benefits, summarized special hindrance, bonus proficiencies. 1 minute.

Spent remaining proficiencies. Had to look up Two Weapon Style Specialization. 2 minutes for weapons before I realized I need to be proficient in the net and the trident. Looked those weapons up. Realize they're kind of horrible. 3 minutes, mostly due to having to reference the Pin maneuver on the Fighter's Handbook to come to the conclusion Net attacks are made at -4 to hit. Deliberated for about 10 minutes on non-weapons.

Purchased equipment, including clothing, weapons, and so on. 15 minutes. Purchased armor- restricted by kit to cruddy Gladiator armor at start. Had to look rules to figure out price and weight. Spent 80 gp that could have gotten me splint mail for Samnite armor with 1 worse AC. 10 minutes.

Wrote everything down. 5 minutes. Realized I forgot to write down my saving throws. 1 minute. Also forgot to calculate encumbrance, decided I have 18/56 Strength and carry 305 pounds and the single heaviest thing I'm carrying is 35, figured I'm ok.

The point being, I don't see how it takes any more time to create a 5e character than a 2e one. The fact that classes and backgrounds give you preset equipment to choose from including kits that grant basic adventuring gear, plus the stripped-down weapon and armor lists makes the most time consuming part easy.

2e has at least as many race options and more character options in the form of classes and kits, not to mention 1st-level multiclassing, that it blows modern D&D out of the water. Why, just the choice of being a Cleric runs into scores of potential Mythos and Specialty Priest options across several books (the main contenders being Complete Priest's, Legends and Lore, Demihuman Deities, Faiths and Avatars, and Powers and Pantheons, depending on what deities are allowed in the campaign!).

EDIT: forgot Monster Mythology!

James Gasik said:

2e has at least as many race options and more character options in the form of classes and kits, not to mention 1st-level multiclassing, that it blows modern D&D out of the water. Why, just the choice of being a Cleric runs into scores of potential Mythos and Specialty Priest options across several books (the main contenders being Complete Priest's, Legends and Lore, Demihuman Deities, Faiths and Avatars, and Powers and Pantheons, depending on what deities are allowed in the campaign!).

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Well, I’d like to point out that a substantial chunk of time you spent (or at least wrote about) was dealing with the kit you chose and having to review special rules… and the whole kit system is entirely optional (if fun). Without it, the only savings 5e significantly has is in equipment defaults.

billd91 said:

Well, I’d like to point out that a substantial chunk of time you spent (or at least wrote about) was dealing with the kit you chose and having to review special rules… and the whole kit system is entirely optional (if fun). Without it, the only savings 5e significantly has is in equipment defaults.

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Sure but equally optional is any class, subclass, species, equipment options, and backgrounds not in the PHB for 5e (plus of course, Feats and Variant Humans are also optional) so I think that's kind of a wash.

This isn't a "5e is the best" discussion point- It is probably my least favorite edition of D&D. But saying that it takes longer to make a character than in 2e isn't really accurate.

Also, when it comes to rules being complex, we are talking about AD&D, right? I mean, there's more subsystems than you can shake a stick at even in the core books, and there's many many more in other books released for the game.

Sure, it's true that many of those rules weren't used by most people, but I still see that as a wash, because every version of D&D has rules people just ignore and rare are the DM's who don't add complexity with house rules of their own.

James Gasik said:

The point being, I don't see how it takes any more time to create a 5e character than a 2e one.

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Good thing that isn't what I said.

I think everyone reasonable can agree that every game system has its pros and cons. You will find die hard fans and haters of every edition of D&D(basic and advanced versions included). There is no perfect version or game system period

Outside of core game systems themselves you also should look at the accessory additions and modules/adventures written for them. All of that helps flesh out and define a game system.

The discussion should never be: "Which version/system is better? " but rather: "Which version has what I want and fits most appropriately? "

As for AD&D 2e; I would say it is a flexible system with lots of optional options for people that want to change things up a bit. 2e retains a high level of complexity with all the systems you can really nerd out too. It also retains a fair amount of grit for those looking for a sense of finality with character deaths and aging. There is also 24 years of content if you include the easily convertible content from AD&D 1e and all basic editions. All that content allows you to have shared experiences with others and that's not something you have so much anymore with post 2000s D&D.

Or atleast that is my take on it.

EDIT: The shared experience bit is one reason I've always came back to Call of Cthulhu for the last 26 years. The rules have changed minimally since the early editions making it very easy to run scenarios written in 1989 in present day 2024 using the most current version with minimal changes.

James Gasik said:

The point being, I don't see how it takes any more time to create a 5e character than a 2e one.

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I don’t think he was referring to character creation, but actual combat/game play.

Alright. I saw "complexity in [both] character" and given that I'd literally just finished character creation, felt that what I ended up with was certainly no less complex than a modern D&D character, at least at 1st level.

If that's not relevant, mea culpa, carry on.

James Gasik said:

Alright. I saw "complexity in [both] character" and given that I'd literally just finished character creation, felt that what I ended up with was certainly no less complex than a modern D&D character, at least at 1st level.

If that's not relevant, mea culpa, carry on.

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I would argue that character creation in 2e is actually longer (though it doesn’t have to be) because you’re poring over NWPs, inventory, and Kits at 1st level but the maintenance of that character afterwards is much less.

TiQuinn said:

I would argue that character creation in 2e is actually longer (though it doesn’t have to be) because you’re poring over NWPs, inventory, and Kits at 1st level but the maintenance of that character afterwards is much less.

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Well, unless you're a Wizard or (shudder) Psionicist. Technically Bards and Thieves get new stuff every level, and those levels come more frequently, but..."wow, I get 30 more points to shove into thieving abilities" isn't a huge ask.

James Gasik said:

Well, unless you're a Wizard or (shudder) Psionicist. Technically Bards and Thieves get new stuff every level, and those levels come more frequently, but..."wow, I get 30 more points to shove into thieving abilities" isn't a huge ask.

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I don't even use thieving abilities in 2e any more, I just turn them into non-weapon proficiencies and then give rogues some extra slots for rogue skills at level 1, they might not even take the former thief skills if they want to, focus in different rogue skills.