"My Character Would Know That"

MarkB

Legend
It isn't that Shadowrun plans are bad, it is that as soon as they enter Phase 1, the street samurai gets bored and starts shooting.
One story I heard about a Spycraft group is that they named their standard approach "burrito plans" (quiet going in, loud coming out) because, in their experience, no matter how well planned the mission, something would go wrong and break stealth before it was over - so it was better to just plan for that from the start and set themselves up for a noisy, chaotic getaway.
 

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Voadam

Legend
In the sense of leveraging the environment and the equipment the PCs happen to be carrying. It’s a cornerstone of skilled play and old-school gaming.
I agree that skilled play is about leveraging the environment and stuff the PCs have.

I think tracking items on the sheet to minute detail is orthogonal though, a different issue entirely.

You can do skilled play with not sweating the small stuff about how many iron spikes you have written down on your character sheet or whether putting a 500 coin equivalent weight statue in your backpack will put you in the next encumbrance category and slow you down if you have to retreat. Making a human pyramid to reach a chandelier is skilled play. Using a round sling stone to see if there is a slant to a dungeon floor is skilled play whether you are tracking ammo or not.

You can do sheet play caring about the resource management game of carrying capacity and number of torches. It seems much more to be categorized as a sheet play issue as that is stuff on the sheet.

Resource management play and cataloging stuff to minute detail and caring about carrying capacity was a common thing in old school style play as was skilled play, but I see them as distinctly different things. I do a lot of skilled play focus as a DM and player but very little resource management and sweating small stuff on my sheet.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
I agree that skilled play is about leveraging the environment and stuff the PCs have.

I think tracking items on the sheet to minute detail is orthogonal though, a different issue entirely.

You can do skilled play with not sweating the small stuff about how many iron spikes you have written down on your character sheet or whether putting a 500 coin equivalent weight statue in your backpack will put you in the next encumbrance category and slow you down if you have to retreat. Making a human pyramid to reach a chandelier is skilled play. Using a round sling stone to see if there is a slant to a dungeon floor is skilled play whether you are tracking ammo or not.

You can do sheet play caring about the resource management game of carrying capacity and number of torches. It seems much more to be categorized as a sheet play issue as that is stuff on the sheet.

Resource management play and cataloging stuff to minute detail and caring about carrying capacity was a common thing in old school style play as was skilled play, but I see them as distinctly different things. I do a lot of skilled play focus as a DM and player but very little resource management and sweating small stuff on my sheet.
That makes no sense and does not track with my experience at all. Tracking gear in detail is one of the things that makes skilled play possible.
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth (He/him)
NOTE: This isn't about skilled play versus "sheet play" or even about player knowledge versus character knowledge.
I’m not familiar with sheet play as a term. From context, I would assume it means something like the oft-cited "pushing buttons on a character sheet", but could someone maybe define the term or confirm if my intuition is correct?

It happens sometimes that the Gm dings a player because they make a poor or nonsensical decision (from the GM's perspective) and the player tries to backtrack with "Well, my character who is a professional adventurer/scientist/space marine would have known better."

Obviously there is a miscommunication between GM and player in that scenario, but that isn't actually what I am interested in here. What I want to dig into is the idea of what the PC is assumed to know based on their class and race and background and skillset and whatever, versus what the player THINKS the PC should know, and how those thinsg interact at the table.
I don't get the difference. Who is doing the assuming here if it's not the player?

In fiction of various media, it is an easy problem to solve. "Due to his long years hunting watzits, Bob knew the best way to catch one was to wait in the watzit tree." But in a game, the player may decide that digging a pit on a game trail is the best way to catch a watzit. This is a simple example, but it can be extended to planning for a long arctic expedition or developing a tactical plan to take a fortified location or any other scenario where the player might have good ideas that don't actually help, but their PC should know what a more appropriate action to take would be.

What's your take? Do you expect the GM to inform the player when they are making a bad plan that differs from what the GM expects the PC to know? Or should the GM adjust to fit what the player believes their character should know to be a solid plan?
I'm not sure if these are meant to be presented as such, but they are not mutually exclusive options. My preference is for the player to decide what their PC knows and for the dice to decide whether it's a good idea or not.
 

Staffan

Legend
That makes no sense and does not track with my experience at all. Tracking gear in detail is one of the things that makes skilled play possible.
I agree with Voadam here. To take a concrete example: I and some of my friends have recently started playing Rime of the Frostmaiden, an adventure that takes place in an arctic landscape cursed with eternal winter. I, as a player, am not particularly familiar with arctic survival, particularly not with medieval/renaissance technology. I'm pretty sure the DM isn't either. But we do have a ranger in the party who is, and on his advice we have bought "winter survival stuff." This would be things that I assume are sufficient, at least unless we run into something extraordinary.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
I agree with Voadam here. To take a concrete example: I and some of my friends have recently started playing Rime of the Frostmaiden, an adventure that takes place in an arctic landscape cursed with eternal winter. I, as a player, am not particularly familiar with arctic survival, particularly not with medieval/renaissance technology. I'm pretty sure the DM isn't either. But we do have a ranger in the party who is, and on his advice we have bought "winter survival stuff." This would be things that I assume are sufficient, at least unless we run into something extraordinary.
No, I'm not saying you can't handwave gear, clearly you can. I'm saying that doing so prevents the players from ever needing to search through their equipment lists and trying to find a bizarre combination of items that can be used in a novel way that is one of the defining features of skilled play.

Your group as an example. You have "winter survival stuff" on your sheets. So, going forward you will always have the right piece of gear for the job at hand. Which means you will never have to come up with creative uses of the random bits of gear you have to accomplish a task. That is explicitly prevented by always having just the right gear for the job, your "winter survival stuff."

For example, you don't have a flint and steel because someone forgot to buy it. But, if you happen to have a spyglass you can hold it over tinder and kindling to start a fire. That's skilled play. A very, very basic example, yes.

Instead of that, when you handwave gear, you automatically just have the right tool for the right job. Always. So that level of digging into the gear you have, that level of creative engagement by the players doesn't happen. It still might happen in other areas, granted. But shenanigans with gear is a cornerstone of skilled play that is cut out by handwaving gear.
 

Staffan

Legend
No, I'm not saying you can't handwave gear, clearly you can. I'm saying that doing so prevents the players from ever needing to search through their equipment lists and trying to find a bizarre combination of items that can be used in a novel way that is one of the defining features of skilled play.

Your group as an example. You have "winter survival stuff" on your sheets. So, going forward you will always have the right piece of gear for the job at hand. Which means you will never have to come up with creative uses of the random bits of gear you have to accomplish a task. That is explicitly prevented by always having just the right gear for the job, your "winter survival stuff."

For example, you don't have a flint and steel because someone forgot to buy it. But, if you happen to have a spyglass you can hold it over tinder and kindling to start a fire. That's skilled play. A very, very basic example, yes.

Instead of that, when you handwave gear, you automatically just have the right tool for the right job. Always. So that level of digging into the gear you have, that level of creative engagement by the players doesn't happen. It still might happen in other areas, granted. But shenanigans with gear is a cornerstone of skilled play that is cut out by handwaving gear.
To me, it's more of an anti-gotcha thing. So the DM doesn't get to say "It's a bright sunny day out on the ice, so you need to roll a Con save to resist snow blindness." That's the kind of thing our ranger would know about and pack blinders for (though those might have other effects like disadvantage on Perception checks). It won't help us if, say, someone falls through the snow into a crevasse. At that point, it's equipment list time.

It's basically the same principle as things like "fishing tackle" in the PHB, which includes "a wooden rod, silken line, corkwood bobbers, steel hooks, lead sinkers, velvet lures, and narrow netting." Realistically, those are all things you'd buy separately (and, in a pre-industrial world, likely from a number of different craftspeople). But you don't have to sweat that, and the DM doesn't get to tell you you forgot to buy a whatsit so you don't get to try and fish.
 

Voadam

Legend
For example, you don't have a flint and steel because someone forgot to buy it. But, if you happen to have a spyglass you can hold it over tinder and kindling to start a fire. That's skilled play. A very, very basic example, yes.

Instead of that, when you handwave gear, you automatically just have the right tool for the right job. Always. So that level of digging into the gear you have, that level of creative engagement by the players doesn't happen. It still might happen in other areas, granted. But shenanigans with gear is a cornerstone of skilled play that is cut out by handwaving gear.
I don't see not sweating the small equipment stuff as meaning you always have the right tool for the job.

If I am at a court ball and we get teleported into wilderness I don't assume I have flint and steel.

Working through it from a skilled play perspective I might ask if any of us has a fancy monocle I could use to focus sunlight over kindling that people gather to start a fire.

Whether anybody has one or not is a question, it could be just yes if we say so, it could be a die roll, it could be no because nobody thought of it explicitly before.

Whether I have flint and steel or spyglass or monocle written on the sheet before hand or determined in the moment is just setting up the narrative situation and can be handled in different ways.

The skilled play part is coming up with a clever solution based on the narrative and thinking through the problem and in-world options.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
To me, it's more of an anti-gotcha thing. So the DM doesn't get to say "It's a bright sunny day out on the ice, so you need to roll a Con save to resist snow blindness." That's the kind of thing our ranger would know about and pack blinders for (though those might have other effects like disadvantage on Perception checks). It won't help us if, say, someone falls through the snow into a crevasse. At that point, it's equipment list time.

It's basically the same principle as things like "fishing tackle" in the PHB, which includes "a wooden rod, silken line, corkwood bobbers, steel hooks, lead sinkers, velvet lures, and narrow netting." Realistically, those are all things you'd buy separately (and, in a pre-industrial world, likely from a number of different craftspeople). But you don't have to sweat that, and the DM doesn't get to tell you you forgot to buy a whatsit so you don't get to try and fish.
Maybe don't start from the assumption that the referee is a jerk who's out to get you.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
I don't see not sweating the small equipment stuff as meaning you always have the right tool for the job.
Unless you need a trebuchet, most of the gear PCs are carrying around is all "the small stuff."
If I am at a court ball and we get teleported into wilderness I don't assume I have flint and steel.
Really? That's the example you're going with.
Whether I have flint and steel or spyglass or monocle written on the sheet before hand or determined in the moment is just setting up the narrative situation and can be handled in different ways.
Right. And not having any of them prevents using them to start a fire. If you handwave gear, in most non-absurd example, then you're always going to have something to start the fire. That's the point. That explicitly prevents skilled play. Skilled play is not "we get to do the thing regardless but get to describe it happening in different ways based on what we wrote down." Skilled play is thinking ahead and spending limited resources (gold, carrying capacity, etc) to decide what you have ahead of time, then having to improvise in the moment with what's already on your sheet. Having a "anything you need" set of ambiguous gear short circuits that.
The skilled play part is coming up with a clever solution based on the narrative and thinking through the problem and in-world options.
Yes, exactly. Ambiguous "have anything you need" items in your equipment explicitly prevent that. The players don't need to check their gear, come up with a creative solution, and try to solve the problem when they can just point to an "anything gear" button on the character sheet. Unless, of course, you as the referee go wildly out of your way to orchestrate bizarre scenarios where they have no relevant equipment at all. Far, far easier to simply have the players track their actual gear and learn to use it creatively.

Either way, this is clearly a pointless loop already. Cheers.
 

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