Extensive Character Sheets Are GM Oppression

GMMichael

Guide of Modos
I have to point out that there's a lot of non-classed systems out there where the only limitations are in terms of overall character build resource and where you decided to put things. And those often still have extensive sheets.
Do those sheets tell a PC what he can and can't do? How often do the GMs go, "let's just make a roll and see what happens," versus "what does your character sheet say you can do?"

What they don't do is give you a lot of on-the-fly ability to move outside of that set of definitions, but its less the game has forced those definitions on you than its forced you to have some set of definitions.
I think it's the "forcing" thing that plays into the "oppression" aspect of the thread.

Do we have any Simply6 players in the thread? That game has a tiny character sheet. Are the Judges of the game as forgiving as I imagine, or as the character sheet suggests?
 

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Thomas Shey

Legend
But do you want to be this granular? I don't.

The perfect is the enemy of the good. Pick your battles.

Though I agree with this in general (and thought your post was well explained) I sometimes think this is used to reduce detail below the level that's desirable in games. I realize some people don't care, but if you want, for example, playing a fencer to feel like a fencer, you need a system that drills down a bit farther than simple rolls to hit.

If that kind of thing doesn't matter to you, of course that extra detail is irrelevant, but my only point is that sometimes abstraction can end up being an enemy of the intended effect you're trying for, at least when pushed up to too high a level.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
Do those sheets tell a PC what he can and can't do? How often do the GMs go, "let's just make a roll and see what happens," versus "what does your character sheet say you can do?"

Sometimes in broad, yes. There may be a lot of potential cases where trying to do things outside your training may land in default abilities (whether its in skill minimums or attribute rolls), so to some extent there's never a case where the sheet isn't addressing your need in one way or another. There may be cases where questions of application aren't clear (which I feel is usually a consequence of the definition of what lands in a given skill is muddy) or where a situation is so far outside of the normal play of the game that interpolation is required, but in the properly designed one, there's never a need for raw game-design-on-the-fly is needed simply to resolve something.

Basically, the sheet will rarely (I say rarely because in some cases where non-cinematic assumptions are in play, there may be cases where the lack of a particular skill translates into an autofail, because they are things that require a sufficient degree of technical training that there is no degree of reasonable success possible--in things resembling the real world at all closely there is no chance within the resolution range of most games that someone without the skill to pilot helicopters will successfully do so; a more cinematic system may let you take a shot at it anyway (as I recall Savage Worlds will let you roll a D4-2 on that one, which means with its open ended die roll you might be able to pull it off, but don't hold your breath) tell you you can't do something at all, but it may well tell you your chance of success is pretty poor. In the Hero System there are usually some of what are called Everyman Skills that allow anyone raised in the culture that gets them to succeed in them on 8 or less on 3D6; in RuneQuest even though you haven't been trained to Swim you'll have a 10% plus your appropriate attribute modifiers chance (probably for a PC around 20% total) and the rules on Swimming will tell you when you don't need to make a roll.

So the sheet will tell you an awful lot (in conjunction with the rules) about whether something is likely or possible in all but very extreme cases.

I think it's the "forcing" thing that plays into the "oppression" aspect of the thread.

Do we have any Simply6 players in the thread? That game has a tiny character sheet. Are the Judges of the game as forgiving as I imagine, or as the character sheet suggests?

As I noted, a game can have a very loosey-goosey approach to how flexible its traits are as a deliberate design issue, and some cinematic games in particular lean into that pretty heavily, but even with those the sheet is normally telling you some strong things about what you're liable to succeed and fail at; they're just covering broader ground in doing so. But bad skills that cover a lot of ground are still telling you your success chance on those is poor. They may well not have much that outright says you can't do anything at all (but even in such games there will often be some binary abilities involving paranormal actions, say) but that's more a choice of playstyle than saying that games that actually want there to be a few things that are impossible or difficult without investing in the ability to do them are oppressive.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
Do those sheets tell a PC what he can and can't do? How often do the GMs go, "let's just make a roll and see what happens," versus "what does your character sheet say you can do?"


I think it's the "forcing" thing that plays into the "oppression" aspect of the thread.

Just realized I didn't respond to this particular part: my point is that its not the detailed character sheet that is the "force" here, its that a class system tends to want to bin somethings apart. You can have a class system with simple sheet that does that.
 

MGibster

Legend
GMs need to give players more freedom. How does performing some minor downtime repair break the game? Just let them do it. Let the characters do any mundane thing without rolling a die. If a player wants their PC to bathe in a small lake, I as GM won't be asking for a swim check.
Over the last few years I've done my best to avoid having players roll for anything that's unimportant. If they're just repairing a broken wheel before they go on their merry way, sure, you lose half a day but get it repaired. Need to repair that broken wheel when the king's guard aren't far behind you? You'd better roll. Failure means you've either got to defend the wagon or leave the bulk of your treasure behind.
 

pemerton

Legend
I am legitimately baffled by whatever your personal definition of "abstract" could be.
I get the following from Oxford Languages via Google (I'm eliding the meanings that aren't pertinent):

existing in thought or as an idea but not having a physical or concrete existence.
"abstract concepts such as love or beauty"

not based on a particular instance; theoretical.
"we have been discussing the problem in a very abstract manner"

consider something theoretically or separately from (something else).
"to abstract science and religion from their historical context can lead to anachronism"​

The general gist is to consider or describe a phenomenon in disregard of certain particular or local details that aren't inherent to the phenomenon as an idea, but that do inhere in given, concrete, real-world instances.

The frictionless plane of high school physics is an abstraction. The movement rate of D&D characters and creatures is an abstraction.

Turn taking is an abstraction of simultaneous action in the midst of the chaos of combat.
Rendering the simultaneous non-simultaneous is not an abstraction. It's not a theoretical simplification, or setting aside of some bit of particular, local detail.

It's a game-play device. Games often (not always) involve taking turns.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
Rendering the simultaneous non-simultaneous is not an abstraction. It's not a theoretical simplification, or setting aside of some bit of particular, local detail.

When it is representing a process that is acknowledged to be simultaneous in actuality, of course that's what it is. Any set of game rules designed to emulate a situation that is not, itself, abstract is.
 

pemerton

Legend
When it is representing a process that is acknowledged to be simultaneous in actuality, of course that's what it is. Any set of game rules designed to emulate a situation that is not, itself, abstract is.
I don't follow this.

It's like saying that the process of putting pegs in to the ships in Battleship is an abstraction of a warship being struck by a shell fired from another warship. But it's not.

Not to mention, turn-taking doesn't represent a process that is acknowledged to be simultaneous in reality. It's an alternative to representing that process.

Contrast, say, systems of simultaneous resolution that use percentage action (or similar) allocations: Rolemaster is an example. That might legitimately be called an abstraction.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
I don't follow this.

It's like saying that the process of putting pegs in to the ships in Battleship is an abstraction of a warship being struck by a shell fired from another warship. But it's not.

At a certain level, it is. Its a very crude abstraction, but that's still what it is.

Not to mention, turn-taking doesn't represent a process that is acknowledged to be simultaneous in reality. It's an alternative to representing that process.

But of course it does. That's why so many turn based systems have special cases to deal with the situations where the failure of that abstraction stands out overly much (interrupt actions in a number of systems for example).

Contrast, say, systems of simultaneous resolution that use percentage action (or similar) allocations: Rolemaster is an example. That might legitimately be called an abstraction.

Your usage of abstraction is vastly too narrow.
 

pemerton

Legend
Your usage of abstraction is vastly too narrow.
I think my usage is standard (as per how the word is used in other fields). Your usage deprives "abstraction" of its meaning.

I can think of plenty of abstractions in RPG combat rules: RQ hit locations (the multiplicity and complexity of striking a body with a weapon is abstracted, regimented and simplified); D&D injury rules, according to which you're either uninjured or you're unconscious and possibly dying (all the other possible intermediate states are abstracted away); rules about how many character can fit in a certain space, or surround another character (which abstract away the details of particular body shapes, positioning, etc).

But turn-taking in D&D is not an abstract representation of the simultaneous interaction of the beings whose "controllers" are taking turns. It's a game play device used to work out what happens to those beings.
 

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