Extensive Character Sheets Are GM Oppression

Blue said:

Thanks for this perfect example that they are levels achievable in the real world, even if it's high functioning real world. As contrast to all of the things heroes can do that are above those levels.

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Kichwas said:

Player: I try to fix the wagon wheel.
GM: make a crafting check.
Player: My PC doesn't have that skill trained, but it says I have +3. Rolls dice.
GM: Ok, after a bit of sweat and toil you figure it out.
Player: Now I want to carve a rune into it so it never breaks again and the wagon can hold a bigger load.
GM: That's a trained only task. You can do normal repairs and such untrained, but not special things.

Some things can be done untrained at one 'bonus' to your roll, being trained boosts your bonus, and unlocks tasks that requires training. The types of things that tend to fall into training are called out in the books because the system I use (Pathfinder 2E) has a lot of detail. Anything else is a judgment call of "Well, it's more like one of these trained things so it will require training" or "that's kind of a thing most people could figure out with some effort but trained people can do better". With the usual guidance being to have things fall into the 'figure it out' camp unless they're clearly 'just like' something in the trained only list.

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Kichwas said:

For example, the Thievery skill:
Player: I steal the pie off the counter. GM: Sure, a trained thief would do this better, but any fool can try.

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pemerton said:

Here's another blog post that seems relevant to character sheets, and how they relate to the resolution rules of a game:

Mechanical Cueing

(ETA: Got my thoughts further in order and put together a full post on the whole Mechanical-Fiction Spectrum.) One of my friends takes forever to make characters. I’ve figured out that if the…

bankuei.wordpress.com

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GMMichael said:

Ah, GM oppression at work. A player just has to look at the character sheet and starts self-limiting.

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GMMichael said:

If a game is focused on specific tasks and rules, then by all means cue the player to use them. My expectation is that the typical RPG offers more of a do-what-you-want playstyle, even if that's not what results from the rules, so a character sheet that (overly) cues the PC seems to contradict that offer.

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pemerton said:

Do you have an example of a RPG PC sheet in mind that doesn't use "mechanical cueing"?

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aramis erak said:

The average man by char gen has earth level olympic performance at first level... high stats go well beyond.

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GMMichael said:

PC: I look at the broken wain. Fixing it should be easy. It clearly just needs to have some parts nailed back in place, reset this brace, and a support put here.

GM: Um, are you a wizard or a wainwright?

PC: Wizard. But my Mental score is 15. I can figure things out.

Who was I to tell the PC he's wrong? It's not my character. That's a GM's dilemma, right? None of the PCs are our characters. So I can't say something like, "sorry, you spent your whole youth locked up in a cell, with only spellbooks, food, and a chamber pot going in and out." Maybe his mother was a wainwright. Maybe he actually learned to be a wizard on a magic truck (see: food truck). I don't know. Not my character.

That says to me that the character sheet is the PC's, too. Sure, it has to bear some rules. But the player makes the decisions. My PCs use sheets that are mostly white space - write your own concept. Write your own hero points. Write your own (non-magical) gear.* Flaws. Skills. Your name (okay, that's a gimme).

So, what about these sheets that are covered, top to bottom, with references to the rule book? Where's the PC freedom? "I know how to fix wains." Okay, let me see your character sheet. Hmm. Your Crafting is zero, it says here. Sorry, not sorry. "But my Int is 15!" Okay, but your Background, Page, doesn't mention anything about wains. Being a wainwright takes Strength, and yours is 10 (wow, that's low!).

Do some character sheets need to give the PC a bit more freedom? What does it say about restrictions when page 1 of a character sheet (sometimes we have to number the pages) is entirely covered with rules-references? Or is the highly detailed character sheet a source of creativity, clearly laying out all the options that the PC has? Please, discuss.

*Maybe magical gear should be fair game at the start. We know plenty of main characters who start with some magic. And it's not always a good thing...

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Blue said:

Now you are literally making things up to try to prove your point. It's okay to give in with grace, even if it's the internet.

Average man in D&D long jump: STR 10 = 10 feet with running jump. (PHB pg 182)

Olympic Record is Bob Beamon with 29 feet 2 1/4 inches.

Lowest winner in the past 50 years was 8.24m, over 27 feet.

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Reynard said:

Well, the jumping rules are notoriously borked. If you look at the carrying and lifting rules, it's a little more pronounced. An average person call walk around with 150 lbs of gear (no way) and can dead lift 300 lbs (also not average). But, that said, the upper limit is nowhere near covered by the ability score: the world record for deadlift is over 1000 lbs, which requires a 33 strength.

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