Extensive Character Sheets Are GM Oppression

GMMichael · Saturday at 8:17 PM

Thomas Shey said:
If so, I withdraw my statement and have to consider the question harder, though my instinct is "no". It might not be what a particular game is trying for in some cases, but detailed character definition is not intrinsically oppressive.

I was not saying that something is oppressing the GM. Nor does a detailed character definition oppress the player. But each reference on the character sheet to the rule book is 1) a place where PC options are limited, and 2) a rule that the GM is supposed to follow, in her role as rules-enforcer.

To continue with Numenera as an example, there are a lot of blank spaces where PCs can write in their skills. There isn't a fixed list of what the PCs can and can't use as skills (but there is a suggested list). But the character sheet also has a line for your character class, which is the game's/GM's way of saying, "you'll have abilities from only this list, and other characters will have some limited ability to be able to pigeonhole who you are."

Thomas Shey · Saturday at 9:14 PM

GMMichael said:
I was not saying that something is oppressing the GM. Nor does a detailed character definition oppress the player. But each reference on the character sheet to the rule book is 1) a place where PC options are limited, and 2) a rule that the GM is supposed to follow, in her role as rules-enforcer.

To continue with Numenera as an example, there are a lot of blank spaces where PCs can write in their skills. There isn't a fixed list of what the PCs can and can't use as skills (but there is a suggested list). But the character sheet also has a line for your character class, which is the game's/GM's way of saying, "you'll have abilities from only this list, and other characters will have some limited ability to be able to pigeonhole who you are."

I have to point out that there's a lot of non-classed systems out there where the only limitations are in terms of overall character build resource and where you decided to put things. And those often still have extensive sheets.

What they don't do is give you a lot of on-the-fly ability to move outside of that set of definitions, but its less the game has forced those definitions on you than its forced you to have some set of definitions.

(Note: I acknowledge some games are specifically avoiding that kind of hard definition, but hard definition in and of itself, is not oppressive).

pemerton · 2024-07-14T00:10:26+0100

Reynard said:
They are all abstractions, because not one is literal. Your arguing semantics for no apparent benefit.

I don't understand this at all. "Abstract" does not mean non-literal. And many if not most RPG rules that I'm familiar with are literal: eg the turn-taking rules in modern D&D combat; the hp-depletion rules in AD&D.

Hex08 · 2024-07-14T04:46:51+0100

pemerton said:
I don't understand this at all. "Abstract" does not mean non-literal. And many if not most RPG rules that I'm familiar with are literal: eg the turn-taking rules in modern D&D combat; the hp-depletion rules in AD&D.

I am confused by your definition of abstract is. No one has hit points and they are definitely abstract descriptions of how a character absorbs damage. If I swing a sword at someone and do 1d8+ whatever modifiers of damage that does not translate to literal damage. If that total is 13 it's probably going to drop many first level characters (as described by the DM or player). If those same 13 points of damage are done to a 12th level character it won't have the same effect on the character receiving it, especially depending on the class.

They are only literal in that the game says a character has "x" number of hit points but they are intended to be an abstraction of how much "damage" a real person can take who is translated to a character for the purposes of the game.

aramis erak · 2024-07-14T05:21:23+0100

pemerton said:
I don't agree with this.

RPG mechanics are (part of) a process for determining who gets to say what happens next, and what they are permitted or obliged to say. The mechanics may do this by abstracting certain things (eg D&D movement rates do this) but there are plenty of mechanics that are not abstractions (eg the AD&D hp and saving throw systems are not abstractions, at least according to Gygax's DMG; the turn-by-turn resolution system in modern D&D combat is a pretty fundamental component of the rules, but is not an abstraction of anything).

Gygax was wrong. Not uncommon for Gygax to not know what he was talking about. He's wrong as it is an abstraction of skill at personal defense and endurance, and that's clear from his own description of what HP are.
And combat rounds are a form of abstraction as well, but an abstraction to represent the much more intricate realities of combat - they abstract how much and when things in combat happen, how much one can attempt....

pemerton · 2024-07-14T07:18:14+0100

aramis erak said:
Gygax was wrong. Not uncommon for Gygax to not know what he was talking about. He's wrong as it is an abstraction of skill at personal defense and endurance, and that's clear from his own description of what HP are.
And combat rounds are a form of abstraction as well, but an abstraction to represent the much more intricate realities of combat - they abstract how much and when things in combat happen, how much one can attempt....

Turn-taking is not an abstraction of anything, though. It’s a literal rule that governs play of a game.

That contrasts with movement rates, which are an abstraction of the (imagined) concrete reality of how people, animals, etc move.

pemerton · 2024-07-14T13:22:26+0100

Hex08 said:
I am confused by your definition of abstract is. No one has hit points and they are definitely abstract descriptions of how a character absorbs damage. If I swing a sword at someone and do 1d8+ whatever modifiers of damage that does not translate to literal damage. If that total is 13 it's probably going to drop many first level characters (as described by the DM or player). If those same 13 points of damage are done to a 12th level character it won't have the same effect on the character receiving it, especially depending on the class.

They are only literal in that the game says a character has "x" number of hit points but they are intended to be an abstraction of how much "damage" a real person can take who is translated to a character for the purposes of the game.

Hit points aren’t about how much "damage" a person can "take" or "absorb". They're a count-down to defeat. Any given ablation of hit points can correspond to a parry, a nick or scratch, or some other way in which a combatant is set back.

The hit point number on a sheet tells you how much it will take to defeat the character; but it doesn't represent, even abstractly, a property of the character. For instance, a character who has 20 hp left doesn't know that no blow struck at them by a longsword will kill them, although the character's player, who can see the hp total, does know that.

KYRON45 · 2024-07-14T13:44:42+0100

Why do flammable and inflammable mean the same thing?
Why are 100 hp and 1 hp the same thing?

kigmatzomat · 2024-07-14T15:25:31+0100

Reynard said:
I am going to push back on the idea that a high Int lets you just figure out how to do stuff. I know plenty of engineers and doctors that couldn't build a decent bird house. I know plenty of construction workers that don't know calculous but can make sure a building goes up plumb.

Speaking as an engineer who has to grudgingly do far more carpentry than I want, this is a gap in system granularity you don't want to stick your hand in.

Meaning that from base principals I can reason out what to do for a lot of complex carpentry. "Cut this board along this angle to get a non-square intersetion that matches the 90yro house".

What it can't give me is muscle memory. The "cut this board in a straight line" part is NOT an int check. Same goes for hammering nails. Those are mix of dex and str checks.

Int plus time & money can compensate to some extent with tools. "Go spend $300 on a table saw, $100 on a nail gun and another $100 on an air compressor" are a way to cut boards in a straight line and drive nails smoothly.

The corrolary is a carpenter building a structure with requirements they have never encountered. A Canadian carpenter won't know how to make an earthquake proof structure and a carribean carpenter has no idea how to make a roof that won't collapse under snow load. The structure is square but doesn't address design needs.

But do you want to be this granular? I don't.

The perfect is the enemy of the good. Pick your battles.

Reynard · 2024-07-14T15:32:31+0100

pemerton said:
Turn-taking is not an abstraction of anything, though.

Turn taking is an abstraction of simultaneous action in the midst of the chaos of combat. I am legitimately baffled by whatever your personal definition of "abstract" could be.

Extensive Character Sheets Are GM Oppression

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