Level Up (A5E) One of A5e best subtle changes: Legendary Resistance

Faolyn said:

OK. Imagine that the players actually realize that the Narrator isn't using the Legendary Resistance.

So?

Really, what's the worst that will happen?

I'm pretty sure that if I, a player, became aware that the monster (a) had LRs and (b) wasn't using them at this particular moment, I wouldn't automatically assume that the Narrator was "soft-balling" me. I would come to the conclusion that it was because the monster didn't find that attack as devastating as I thought it would be. Which would be scary as both a player and a PC.

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Heck, I just don't use some monster features because I am bad at running monsters. My players still have much fun and keep coming back.

I have also had players tell me they appreciate that I am a benevolent gm. I can be and am that, but also, like I said, some times features don't get used because I simply forget to use them.

Faolyn said:

OK. Imagine that the players actually realize that the Narrator isn't using the Legendary Resistance.

So?

Really, what's the worst that will happen?

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the players feel dissatisfaction at being soft-balled. that's the worst that could happen. sure, it's not catastrophic, but for tables where that occurs it can still be a problem.

Faolyn said:

I'm pretty sure that if I, a player, became aware that the monster (a) had LRs and (b) wasn't using them at this particular moment, I wouldn't automatically assume that the Narrator was "soft-balling" me. I would come to the conclusion that it was because the monster didn't find that attack as devastating as I thought it would be. Which would be scary as both a player and a PC.

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okay...except this was the initial message that kickstarted this side debate (bold for emphasis):

Stalker0 said:

Personally, I think Legendary Resistance is one of the worst 5e monster mechanics. I completely understand why it is exists, but there is nothing more "feels bad man" than a player who actually gets off their big spell, than to be told "sorry, it did nothing". But I found that adding in these little weakening does a lot to soothe the hurt, the spellcaster can take comfort that they are still contributing, even if its not in the way they wanted.

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so sure, there are groups where a caster's "big spell" is just a bunch of damage...but there's also groups where a caster's "big spell" is something like a banishment or hold monster or forcecage or plane shift. a monster that decides to just shrug off the big damage spell? yeah, okay, that can be pretty intimidating. a monster that intentionally eats a hold monster?...yeah, no, i'm not buying that.

foxblade said:

Heck, I just don't use some monster features because I am bad at running monsters. My players still have much fun and keep coming back.

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i've had times where i straight up ran a monster so wrong it completely warped the encounter, only to have my players actively praise exactly the way the encounter got warped. so yeah, i know how this feels, lol.

foxblade said:

I have also had players tell me they appreciate that I am a benevolent gm.

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yeah, there are definitely groups that not only don't mind being soft-balled, but actively appreciate it. i'm not talking about those groups.

W'rkncacnter said:

the players feel dissatisfaction at being soft-balled.

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Maybe, maybe not. And you're still assuming that the players will know that the LR wasn't being used, which isn't a given. Not every Narrator rolls in the open (I can't; we game via Discord) or displays their monsters' abilities so the players know what's going on..

W'rkncacnter said:

so sure, there are groups where a caster's "big spell" is just a bunch of damage...but there's also groups where a caster's "big spell" is something like a banishment or hold monster or forcecage or plane shift. a monster that decides to just shrug off the big damage spell? yeah, okay, that can be pretty intimidating. a monster that intentionally eats a hold monster?...yeah, no, i'm not buying that.

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That's when Rule of Cool comes in. Would it be cooler for the monster to use their LR now or not?

Unless you were thinking that I say never use the LRs, or that I choose whether or not to use them via a random die roll or something?

And right here you indicate a good reason not to use LRs. You're a BBEG. Maybe you've been keeping an eye on the PCs and know what they can do. Maybe you have good reason to suspect--or just fear--they use debuffs. So you hold off on your LRs until you're sure you need them--when they start throwing out the forcecages or you're low on hp.

Faolyn said:

Maybe, maybe not. And you're still assuming that the players will know that the LR wasn't being used, which isn't a given. Not every Narrator rolls in the open (I can't; we game via Discord) or displays their monsters' abilities so the players know what's going on..

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well...yeah. of course i'm assuming that, because i'm talking about tables where they can.

Faolyn said:

That's when Rule of Cool comes in. Would it be cooler for the monster to use their LR now or not?

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i mean, that seems less like rule of cool and more battle strategy. you're not changing the statblock on the fly or making the monster do something it technically can't or anything. but i dunno, maybe i'm just not getting what you mean by "rule of cool" here.

Faolyn said:

Unless you were thinking that I say never use the LRs, or that I choose whether or not to use them via a random die roll or something?

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i genuinely don't understand where you're going with this. your table doesn't even really fall under what i've been talking about, since you don't tell your players when you use LRs.

Faolyn said:

And right here you indicate a good reason not to use LRs. You're a BBEG. Maybe you've been keeping an eye on the PCs and know what they can do. Maybe you have good reason to suspect--or just fear--they use debuffs. So you hold off on your LRs until you're sure you need them--when they start throwing out the forcecages or you're low on hp.

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...uh...yes, i'm aware what i argued. your position from earlier was:

Faolyn said:

To be fair, Legendary Resistance doesn't go off automatically. If you're the Narrator and the player is doing something awesome that they rarely get to do, you can just... not use LR at that time.

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"something awesome that they rarely get to do" can include a forcecage, or a hold monster, or a plane shift, or a banishment. if those sorts of effects aren't what you meant, then fair enough, i guess.

I recall designing a ZEITGEIST boss fight with this in mind. I had a singular mastermind who had bound four ghosts to him which he could use as little minions to grab and such. But if he was affected by something he didn't like, he could just have one of the ghosts take the hit instead.

It was a visual cue, and it fit the villain's shtick, and it let the fight last long enough to be dramatic.

W'rkncacnter said:

well...yeah. of course i'm assuming that, because i'm talking about tables where they can.

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And I'm not. I've been talking about tables in general. I don't care about what your specific table does. GMs aren't required to use Legendary Resistances every single time the creature is hit by an effect that requires a save, if only for the reasons I mentioned re: weak effects.

In fact, I I've read posts (seriously--google "D&D are legendary resistances unfun") about how the best way to get around LRs is to spam weak powers, and how annoying it is that you have to waste your first few rounds doing that before you can get to the meat of the combat. I've seen people say it's just like the DM saying "no" and that they're too meta-gamey.

W'rkncacnter said:

i mean, that seems less like rule of cool and more battle strategy. you're not changing the statblock on the fly or making the monster do something it technically can't or anything. but i dunno, maybe i'm just not getting what you mean by "rule of cool" here.

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"Would it be cooler for the monster to fail their save or to succeed?"

Sometimes, the most strategic option isn't very cool--let's face it, the actual most strategic option would be for the BBEG to never let the PCs get anywhere near the PCs, ever. To only attack them from a distance, or not at all and just send minions, or find other ways to go after them that don't involve the BBEG suffering the risk of great harm.

Obviously, this can be very unfun for the players and Narrator most of the time, since even the most peaceful party or group of players plays games like this for at least an occasional combat. So we're left with figuring out what the most interesting things to do in combat for the players are, which is not necessarily what's strategic.

Sometimes, what's fun for the group is to let the monster succumb to the effect, because it can be very un-fun to set up a really cool strategy and have it fail due to poor rolls--or in this case, because the monster uses an LR.

Please note: I'm not saying "don't use LRs." I'm not saying "only use them rarely." Nor am I saying "play the monster weaker than they should be played."

Literally all I am saying is that you're not required to use them every time you possibly can.

Faolyn said:

And I'm not. I've been talking about tables in general.

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...why? i started talking to you about this because you expressed confusion about how players could ever notice legendary resistances being used and i pointed out there's tables where it's possible.

as for the rest of your post...this seems so far away from where we started that i think i'm just gonna stop participating in this tangent.