Level Up (A5E) One of A5e best subtle changes: Legendary Resistance

Faolyn

(she/her)
Some A5E spells do this- slow for example will make a creature Rattled if it succeeds. It would be great if more of them did.
Agreed. Some thoughts:

If a spell has an effect that lasts for a minute or longer, then on a successful save, the target suffers the effects of it until the start its next turn. Or, the target is rattled until the end of its next turn. Whichever is more appropriate to the spell or less powerful (Narrator's opinion).

If the spell (1st level or higher) inflicts damage with no damage on a successful save, then it inflicts... I'll call it "basic spell damage," which is like basic melee damage for maneuvers but inflicts the damage type listed.
 

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Faolyn

(she/her)
a party whose dm rolls in the open will always be able to see when a legendary resistance is used.

plus, as the OP notes, legendary resistances in a5e tend to actively debuff the monster. if you communicate that debuff even in vague, narrativist terms, a savvy player could probably figure it out.
I mean, sure. But still. If the players want to wonder why the dragon didn't use three LRs during the battle, well, they probably shouldn't be using their own meta-knowledge to count those things.
 

I mean, sure. But still. If the players want to wonder why the dragon didn't use three LRs during the battle, well, they probably shouldn't be using their own meta-knowledge to count those things.
so what, you think the players should just ignore what's right in front of them? i mean if we were talking about determining in character strategy i'd get it, but we're talking about noticing the DM put on the kiddie gloves. "just ignore it" isn't really going to help with that in my experience.
 

Distracted DM

Distracted DM
Supporter
a party whose dm rolls in the open will always be able to see when a legendary resistance is used.

plus, as the OP notes, legendary resistances in a5e tend to actively debuff the monster. if you communicate that debuff even in vague, narrativist terms, a savvy player could probably figure it out.
The A5E ones also usually give visual indications. I think the lich has runes or something that wink out, the dragon's scales break away, etc.
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
so what, you think the players should just ignore what's right in front of them? i mean if we were talking about determining in character strategy i'd get it, but we're talking about noticing the DM put on the kiddie gloves. "just ignore it" isn't really going to help with that in my experience.
So what, you assume that the players know all of the monsters' abilities and, what, check them off when they're used?

Look, I personally know the monsters quite well. When I'm a player, I turn that part of my brain off. I don't meta-game.
Nor do I assume that the monster is being used exactly the way they are written in the book. And if I knew a monster had LRs, I wouldn't be counting them off, nor would I assume that the DM is using "kiddie gloves" because one didn't get used every time an ability with a save is used. Even if I did know that a particular monster had LRs and knew that they weren't used at that particular moment in time, why would I assume the DM is going soft? Why would you?

And anyway, the monster would have to spend part of their action figuring out exactly what ability the PC used to know if it's worth it to resist--especially in LU where LRs have a side effect to being used. Maybe your millennia-old liches who know every spell would instantly know every spell the PCs could possibly throw at them, but other creatures?
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
a party whose dm rolls in the open will always be able to see when a legendary resistance is used.

plus, as the OP notes, legendary resistances in a5e tend to actively debuff the monster. if you communicate that debuff even in vague, narrativist terms, a savvy player could probably figure it out.
Which is fine, but personally I would want them to have to figure it out, rather than just lay it out there in blatantly gamist terms.
 

So what, you assume that the players know all of the monsters' abilities and, what, check them off when they're used?
depends on the table. at yours? probably not.

but i'm currently at a table (well, "table" - it's on roll20) where the DM posts enemy abilities and their usage rate as the ability is used. at that table, yeah, i can absolutely track how many uses of a given ability an enemy has. i'm sure there are also DMs that hint at how many uses enemies have of various abilities via narrative descriptions.
Look, I personally know the monsters quite well.
and at all the tables i've been at, i've never been able to, since every enemy has either been completely custom or else so reskinned as to be practically unrecognizable.
When I'm a player, I turn that part of my brain off. I don't meta-game.
who's been talking about metagaming?
Nor do I assume that the monster is being used exactly the way they are written in the book. And if I knew a monster had LRs, I wouldn't be counting them off, nor would I assume that the DM is using "kiddie gloves" because one didn't get used every time an ability with a save is used. Even if I did know that a particular monster had LRs and knew that they weren't used at that particular moment in time, why would I assume the DM is going soft? Why would you?
because i generally expect enemies to try to win (or at least live)?
And anyway, the monster would have to spend part of their action figuring out exactly what ability the PC used to know if it's worth it to resist--especially in LU where LRs have a side effect to being used. Maybe your millennia-old liches who know every spell would instantly know every spell the PCs could possibly throw at them, but other creatures?
i mean, for one, this also depends on the flow of information at the table. if, for instance, the DM always announces immediately what spell an enemy is going to cast and then allows counterspells from players, that implies that figuring out what spell is going to be cast is easy enough that anyone can do it without a check, so in a game like that, yeah, i'd expect a monster to be able to ration out LRs fairly effectively. but if figuring out what a spell is is difficult, or the legendary enemy is pretty stupid (e.g. a tarrasque)...well, i'd expect them to go pretty quickly. i mean, the enemies want to live, right?

but also, you're assuming legendary resistances are an ability a monster actively chooses to use in-universe, and not just a representation of a monster's increased luck or fortitude. and that's fine, but i doubt there aren't tables that run the other way.

EDIT2: actually, wait, i just realized something. legendary resistance applies after the failed save, i.e. after the spell has been cast and as it's taking effect - why would you need to be able to recognize it to know how dangerous it is at that point? the monster is in the middle of being effected by it, it should be fairly intuitive to determine whether or not it's worth an LR.
Which is fine, but personally I would want them to have to figure it out, rather than just lay it out there in blatantly gamist terms.
oh, im not arguing in favour of one way or the other. im simply arguing there are tables where figuring out an enemy used an LR exist, and that ignoring that at those tables isn't really useful advice.

EDIT: to clarify "ignoring that" as in ignoring it as a player, not as a character. im not advocating in favour of metagaming, i just ran out of time on my break.
 
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Faolyn

(she/her)
depends on the table. at yours? probably not.

but i'm currently at a table (well, "table" - it's on roll20) where the DM posts enemy abilities and their usage rate as the ability is used. at that table, yeah, i can absolutely track how many uses of a given ability an enemy has.
Which is...

who's been talking about metagaming?
We both have--you just did right above--since that's the only reason why the PCs would know that the monster didn't use one of its LRs. Such as this:

because i generally expect enemies to try to win (or at least live)?
Your character would expect the enemy to win. Your character doesn't know that Legendary Resistances exist. The player does. Because...

but also, you're assuming legendary resistances are an ability a monster actively chooses to use in-universe, and not just a representation of a monster's increased luck or fortitude. and that's fine, but i doubt there aren't tables that run the other way.
If they're not something controllable, if they go off the moment the creature fails a save, then LRs are really stupid from a rules perspective. You're fighting a dragon or a lich or whatever, just zap it with some cantrips or 1st-level spells or have the martials use 1-pt. maneuvers until it becomes vulnerable to more powerful spells and maneuvers that will actually be useful.

Which doesn't make any in-game sense.

And if that's the case, then there should be a fairly decent chance that the creature won't start out with all their LRs because they accidentally tripped over something earlier in the day, failed their Dex save, and burned their LR unintentionally.
 

Which is...
...what?
We both have--you just did right above--since that's the only reason why the PCs would know that the monster didn't use one of its LRs.
okay, no, i don't think you understand what i've been trying to say. let me clarify for...i think the third time now?

i am NOT advocating for metagaming. i am not attempting to DISCUSS metagaming. none of what i have been arguing has been meant to be from the perspective of a PC, but of a PLAYER. these are different things.

my entire point is that, as a PLAYER, there are tables where it's more then possible to be able to determine when a DM chooses not to use a legendary resistance, and thus whether the DM is softballing you, and that simply trying to ignore that isn't really helpful advice for those who dislike that and are at those tables. that's it. i am NOT arguing that because there are tables where you can tell how many legendary resistances an enemy has that you should use that information to your character's advantage even if your character has no way of knowing, or anything like that.
Your character would expect the enemy to win. Your character doesn't know that Legendary Resistances exist. The player does.
as i said above...yeah. the PLAYER knowing is the entire point.
If they're not something controllable, if they go off the moment the creature fails a save, then LRs are really stupid from a rules perspective. You're fighting a dragon or a lich or whatever, just zap it with some cantrips or 1st-level spells or have the martials use 1-pt. maneuvers until it becomes vulnerable to more powerful spells and maneuvers that will actually be useful.

Which doesn't make any in-game sense.

And if that's the case, then there should be a fairly decent chance that the creature won't start out with all their LRs because they accidentally tripped over something earlier in the day, failed their Dex save, and burned their LR uniunintentionally
i mean, that's not necessarily true because you as the DM can still control when legendary resistances actually kick in, but also, i mean...okay, but that's only one point i brought up on that.

i also made a couple edits to that post in case you missed them. i don't know if you did since you skip over a decent bit anyway or if you just didn't feel a need to respond to them but i thought i'd just mention that.
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
my entire point is that, as a PLAYER, there are tables where it's more then possible to be able to determine when a DM chooses not to use a legendary resistance, and thus whether the DM is softballing you, and that simply trying to ignore that isn't really helpful advice for those who dislike that and are at those tables. that's it. i am NOT arguing that because there are tables where you can tell how many legendary resistances an enemy has that you should use that information to your character's advantage even if your character has no way of knowing, or anything like that.
OK. Imagine that the players actually realize that the Narrator isn't using the Legendary Resistance.

So?

Really, what's the worst that will happen?

I'm pretty sure that if I, a player, became aware that the monster (a) had LRs and (b) wasn't using them at this particular moment, I wouldn't automatically assume that the Narrator was "soft-balling" me. I would come to the conclusion that it was because the monster didn't find that attack as devastating as I thought it would be. Which would be scary as both a player and a PC.
 

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