D&D (2024) GREYHAWKCONFIRMED! Reflections on Greyhawk in the DMG

Hussar · Jun 30, 2024

Parmandur said:
Nah, this is less like the Spellplafue, and more like the Second Sundering from juat before 5E, that restored major key NPCs but left the world state remarkably similar to the Classic Reqlms so they could have their metaplot Cale and eat their evergreen Setting, too.

The second sundering was a direct response to the level of outright hate WotC was getting for the Sndering and Spellplague changes. They, as you said, reset all the 4e changes and restored all the masses of material used previously.

More or less anyway.

But I was referring to the difference between the reactions to the first Sundering and the reset of Greyhawk.

It’s funny how canon is vitally important and must be preserved. Until it isn’t.

Parmandur · Jun 30, 2024

Hussar said:
The second sundering was a direct response to the level of outright hate WotC was getting for the Sndering and Spellplague changes. They, as you said, reset all the 4e changes and restored all the masses of material used previously.

More or less anyway.

But I was referring to the difference between the reactions to the first Sundering and the reset of Greyhawk.

It’s funny how canon is vitally important and must be preserved. Until it isn’t.

Right, but what I'm saying is that basically all Greyhawk lore past 1985 is basically the Spellplague for a lot of Greyhawk fans, so returning the Setting to the Gygaxian state is more like the Second Sundering undoing so much metaplot changes to the shape of the Forgotten Realms. Greyhawk Wars in the 80's was the awkward and controversial misstep.

Snarf Zagyg · Jun 30, 2024

Hussar said:
The second sundering was a direct response to the level of outright hate WotC was getting for the Sndering and Spellplague changes. They, as you said, reset all the 4e changes and restored all the masses of material used previously.

More or less anyway.

But I was referring to the difference between the reactions to the first Sundering and the reset of Greyhawk.

It’s funny how canon is vitally important and must be preserved. Until it isn’t.

Well, I tried to explain the difference here, albeit with an analogy to stare decisis. Because of course I did.

But one thing I have repeatedly noted is this-
Now, the greatest strength (or weakness, depending on your view) of FR is that it isn't just a campaign setting. It has its own rich tapestry of lore through countless novels, video games, and other media (including the recent movie) that have added more story to the setting than other D&D settings.

The thing about FR is that because of games and novels and Greenwood, there is just more. So people that really are into FR, are really into FR.

GH doesn't have that problem. Not to mention that for some GH fans, most of the "more" doesn't matter.

In addition, I think it honestly helps that it's been so long without GH that at this point, people are happy to have it back. And they're happy that WoTC is releasing it in a way that isn't prescriptive, so that they can have "official support" for a setting, but there isn't a whole lot of constraint in re-making it their own.

It's a big difference. Talk to a GH fan the past ten years, and it's all, "Where's GH? What about the DM's Guild?"

Talk to an FR fan, and it's all, "When are we getting the big campaign books with all the cool lore?"

Parmandur · Jun 30, 2024

Honestly, for me, the two big exciting things are, one, the possibility of DMsGuild creativity being opened up, but two and more importantly, the new DMG is a book that I will probably feel comfortable handing to my children and letting them go hog wild with, much more than anything from the 1980s. Even though the old stuff works for me, I don't necessarily feel safe just springing that on kids without context.

Saracenus · Jun 30, 2024

The Greyhawk fandom is way more complex than a binary Pre-1985/Post-95 split. Like Doctor Who what you think is Greyhawk really depends on what was your entry point. Here is a list (and it is not definitive):

1) Folks that played at Gary Gygax and Rob Kuntz's (Gary made him Co-DM when TSR started catching fire) Castle Greyhawk table at the dawn of D&D. You can still find folks from this cohort at Dragonsfoot. This started with OD&D and was the test bead for 1e.
2) Folks that teased out parts of Greyhawk prior to the publishing of the Folio in 1980 (Modules, Dragon Magazine, rumor).
3) World of Greyhawk Folio/Box Set (1980/1983).
4) Post Gary Gygax/2nd Edition. TSR went after fan sites at this time. This was the sundering of Greyhawk fandom. There was the official TSR AOL forums and the guerilla underground that was the Greytalk mail list (this morphed into an IRC channel and the Canonfire website when the heat died down).
5) Greyhawk Wars/From The Ashes. We can call this the Carl Sargent era.
5) Silver Age of Greyhawk under Anne Brown and Roger E. Moore. Sean K. Reynolds cut his teeth on a bunch of these.
6) 3e and Living Greyhawk.
7) Paizohawk and the birth of the adventure path in Dungeon magazine.

I personally nibbled at #2 but was all in with #3 when I bought the Folio in 1980. I have played or run every version since. My stance on what is and what isn't Greyhawk has evolved. Frankly I have come full circle back to the days of the Folio/Box Set when you had to create your own content and/or wait for the very slow churn from Gygax.

Parmandur · Jun 30, 2024

Saracenus said:
The Greyhawk fandom is way more complex than a binary Pre-1985/Post-95 split. Like Doctor Who what you think is Greyhawk really depends on what was your entry point. Here is a list (and it is not definitive):

1) Folks that played at Gary Gygax and Rob Kuntz's (Gary made him Co-DM when TSR started catching fire) Castle Greyhawk table at the dawn of D&D. You can still find folks from this cohort at Dragonsfoot. This started with OD&D and was the test bead for 1e.
2) Folks that teased out parts of Greyhawk prior to the publishing of the Folio in 1980 (Modules, Dragon Magazine, rumor).
3) World of Greyhawk Folio/Box Set (1980/1983).
4) Post Gary Gygax/2nd Edition. TSR went after fan sites at this time. This was the sundering of Greyhawk fandom. There was the AOL forums and the guerilla underground that was the Greytalk mail list (this morphed into and IRC channel and the Canonfire website when the heat died down).
5) Greyhawk Wars/From The Ashes. We can call this the Carl Sargent era.
5) Silver Age of Greyhawk under Anne Brown and Roger E. Moore. Sean K. Reynolds cut his teeth on a bunch of these.
6) 3e and Living Greyhawk.
7) Paizohawk and the birth of the adventure path in Dungeon magazine.

I personally nibbled at #2 but was all in with #3 when I bought the Folio in 1980. I have played or run every version since. My stance on what is and what isn't Greyhawk has evolved. Frankly I have come full circle back to the days of the Folio/Box Set when you had to create your own content and/or wait for the very slow churn from Gygax.

Personally, I was 6a: VagueHawk from the core tukebooks simply was D&D for me as a teenager, with Forgotten Realms and Ebwrron being oddball exceptions to the norms of lore-light Greyhawk.

Didn't dig further until the Teens, with Dndclassics selling PDFs!

haakon1 · Jul 4, 2024

JEB said:
if Wizards doesn't put it in print, it basically doesn't exist for 2024 5e Greyhawk.

True, I suppose.

But the “only the current edition is D&D, everything earlier is bad” attitude turns off potential customers like me.

haakon1 · Jul 4, 2024

Saracenus said:
The Greyhawk fandom is way more complex than a binary Pre-1985/Post-95 split. Like Doctor Who what you think is Greyhawk really depends on what was your entry point. Here is a list (and it is not definitive):

1) Folks that played at Gary Gygax and Rob Kuntz's (Gary made him Co-DM when TSR started catching fire) Castle Greyhawk table at the dawn of D&D. You can still find folks from this cohort at Dragonsfoot. This started with OD&D and was the test bead for 1e.
2) Folks that teased out parts of Greyhawk prior to the publishing of the Folio in 1980 (Modules, Dragon Magazine, rumor).
3) World of Greyhawk Folio/Box Set (1980/1983).
4) Post Gary Gygax/2nd Edition. TSR went after fan sites at this time. This was the sundering of Greyhawk fandom. There was the official TSR AOL forums and the guerilla underground that was the Greytalk mail list (this morphed into an IRC channel and the Canonfire website when the heat died down).
5) Greyhawk Wars/From The Ashes. We can call this the Carl Sargent era.
5) Silver Age of Greyhawk under Anne Brown and Roger E. Moore. Sean K. Reynolds cut his teeth on a bunch of these.
6) 3e and Living Greyhawk.
7) Paizohawk and the birth of the adventure path in Dungeon magazine.

I personally nibbled at #2 but was all in with #3 when I bought the Folio in 1980. I have played or run every version since. My stance on what is and what isn't Greyhawk has evolved. Frankly I have come full circle back to the days of the Folio/Box Set when you had to create your own content and/or wait for the very slow churn from Gygax.

#5 is the only one I reject in my Greyhawk. I think rejecting #5 (or 4-5 onwards) is common, so the reset to 576 CY (~1-4) is to a version every Greyhawk fan feels either is or was “real” for them.

Parmandur · Jul 4, 2024

haakon1 said:
True, I suppose.

But the “only the current edition is D&D, everything earlier is bad” attitude turns off potential customers like me.

But nobody has said that: WotC has just stated that they are not beholden to what has come before, and feel free to edit as necessary. Which is entirely sane and reasonable.

Voadam · Jul 5, 2024

Parmandur said:
Right, but what I'm saying is that basically all Greyhawk lore past 1985 is basically the Spellplague for a lot of Greyhawk fans, so returning the Setting to the Gygaxian state is more like the Second Sundering undoing so much metaplot changes to the shape of the Forgotten Realms. Greyhawk Wars in the 80's was the awkward and controversial misstep.

I think the Forgotten Realms 5e reboot to reset things to pre 4e FR is more like late 2e WotC Greyhawk where they advance the timeline a bit and mostly reset the setting to be similar to pre 2e Greyhawk Wars.

Late 2e Greyhawk reboot with the Players Guide and the Adventure Begins has the crook of Rao banish the hordes of Iuz demons, a bunch of the good lands regain conquered stuff from Iuz, Scarlet Brotherhood loses ground they had taken over, just a few leftovers of the Greyhawk Wars such as the complete conquering of Almor and the mostly conquering of Geoff.

5e FR keeps the 100 year timeline advancement and advances it a bit more to reset things in world to be mostly like they were in pre-4e FR, but the timeline has advanced so while most countries are fairly as they were pre 4e, there are a lot of pre 4e NPCs who would not be around 100 years later (a number are for either being long-lived or specific story shenanigans).

The 5e DMG Greyhawk actually takes things back to the earlier 1e timeframe so I think it is a bit different.

More like Dragonlance putting out War of the Lance setting/stuff in 3e and 5e.

D&D (2024) GREYHAWKCONFIRMED! Reflections on Greyhawk in the DMG

Hussar

Legend

Parmandur

Book-Friend

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist

Parmandur

Book-Friend

Saracenus

Always In School Gamer

Parmandur

Book-Friend

haakon1

Hero

haakon1

Hero

Parmandur

Book-Friend

Voadam

Legend

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