D&D (2024) GREYHAWKCONFIRMED! Reflections on Greyhawk in the DMG

Hussar said:

It is kinda funny really. When WotC changed the Forgotten Realms to remove/change lore, people lost their freaking minds. It was a HUGE deal. But, strip out decades of Greyhawk lore and return it back to original? GREAT!

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I think that speaks to a general difference between Forgotten Realms fans and Greyhawk fans. FR fans tend to be absolute lore junkies and like to devour metaplot like Cronus like to devour his children. Whereas Greyhawk fans tend to view the setting as more of a toolbox and view metaplot with some trepidation. (Because exceptions do exist, I'm only speaking to general trends in the fandom.)

Azzy said:

I think that speaks to a general difference between Forgotten Realms fans and Greyhawk fans. FR fans tend to be absolute lore junkies and like to devour metaplot like Cronus like to devour his children. Whereas Greyhawk fans tend to view the setting as more of a toolbox and view metaplot with some trepidation. (Because exceptions do exist, I'm only speaking to general trends in the fandom.)

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Ed Greenwood created the Forgotten Realms nearly 60 years ago, has consistently collaborated with others to expand it including recent publications on the DMsGuild, and has a Twitter and YouTube account where he continues to add new lore. The Forgotten Realms is still sufficiently open to run games, but the amount of worldbuilding by volume is astounding when you think about it.

The Gygaxian Greyhawk canon, in comparison, is quite slim. Always has invited creation more than research.

As long as they don't try to stomp on Anna's incredible map and heraldry projects, I will be happy.

Pauln6 said:

As long as they don't try to stomp on Anna's incredible map and heraldry projects, I will be happy.

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Good point.

For those of you who are not familiar with the reference, prior to this excellent (REALLY) map by Mike Schley, I would say that there have been two maps of Greyhawk (specifically, the Flanaess, that's the part of Oerth that we think of when we say "Greyhawk") that have really stood out.

The first, of course, is the Darlene Map. One of the most iconic fantasy maps ever, and the OG (Original Greyhawk!) map.

The second are the maps of Anna B. Meyer, who has been making amazing maps of Greyhawk for some time (and heladry to, if that's your bag).

Visit her website and see for yourself-


Obviously, with the renewed focus from WoTC on Greyhawk, I certainly hope that they will be leaving space for the Anne Meyers of the world, who have kept Greyhawk alive during the long winter of WoTC's inattention.

Azzy said:

I think that speaks to a general difference between Forgotten Realms fans and Greyhawk fans. FR fans tend to be absolute lore junkies and like to devour metaplot like Cronus like to devour his children. Whereas Greyhawk fans tend to view the setting as more of a toolbox and view metaplot with some trepidation. (Because exceptions do exist, I'm only speaking to general trends in the fandom.)

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Azzy, I really wish this were true.

Unfortunately that has not been the case. With the ejection of Gygax in 1985 from TSR and initial 2e Greyhawk material being perceived as a lot of [deleted] and then TSR going after fan sites trying to consolidate control of the setting in the pre-internet AOL forums, there arose an idea that fans had to protect and preserve Greyhawk from TSR. That led to the idea of canon and a emphasis on lore vs. emergent story.

Even when TSR shifted gears and embraced fan input this canon/lore emphasis persisted. I cannot tell you how vicious the internal fights over canon vs. "fanon" were in those days. There really was no place for someone who was trying to develop their own Greyhawk online at that time. The only way you got your version of Greyhawk to stick was to get published by TSR. The culmination of this was the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer (LGG) written by Gary Holian, Erik Mona, Sean K Reynolds, and Frederick Weining. Yeah, more was published in the Living Greyhawk Magazine (first as a stand alone mag and then subsumed into Dragon/Dungeon) but the LGG was the source for 591 CY Greyhawk and it was the 83 box set of its time.

The idea of making Greyhawk your own in a public way (plenty of folks were doing it in private) didn't really gain a public voice until at the 2019 GaryCon seminar, Celebrating Greyhawk: A Fandom Renaissance*, when a group of us chafing under the canon lore centric paradigm started advocating the idea of "Infinite Oerths" and fan created material being just as valid as what TSR/WotC has published.

The main difference between Greyhawk fandom and the Forgotten Realms fandom is size, FR dwarfs us by a long mile.

* = Full disclosure, I am one of the panelists. The panel consisted of Bryan Blumklotz (me), Mike Bridges, Allan Grohe, Carlos Lising, Anna Meyer, and Kit Nolen. See the seminar below:

Pauln6 said:

As long as they don't try to stomp on Anna's incredible map and heraldry projects, I will be happy.

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Snarf Zagyg said:

Good point.

For those of you who are not familiar with the reference, prior to this excellent (REALLY) map by Mike Schley, I would say that there have been two maps of Greyhawk (specifically, the Flanaess, that's the part of Oerth that we think of when we say "Greyhawk") that have really stood out.

The first, of course, is the Darlene Map. One of the most iconic fantasy maps ever, and the OG (Original Greyhawk!) map.

The second are the maps of Anna B. Meyer, who has been making amazing maps of Greyhawk for some time (and heladry to, if that's your bag).

Visit her website and see for yourself-

Anna B. Meyer - Fantasy Cartography

Obviously, with the renewed focus from WoTC on Greyhawk, I certainly hope that they will be leaving space for the Anne Meyers of the world, who have kept Greyhawk alive during the long winter of WoTC's inattention.

Click to expand...

I talk with Anna [Meyer] regularly and she has started to refer to her maps as Meyerhawk because her map is a combo of published sources, Living Greyhawk, and her personal campaign.

She is flattered that folks see her map as definitive but she sees it as one among many. The level of detail that she brings is not really in line with the stated intentions of WotC for Greyhawk, they want to give just enough information for someone to make it their own. They are also going back to 576 CY and the Darlene map where Meyerhawk is definitely 591 CY and later.

BTW I got a peek at her GIS enabled version of the Greyhawk map and it is going to be amazing what you will be able to do with it. Eventually you will be able to customize the non-topographical parts of the map (settlements, political boundaries, etc.) and make the map your own.

Saracenus said:

BTW I got a peek at her GIS enabled version of the Greyhawk map and it is going to be amazing what you will be able to do with it.

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Reading GIS as a word with a soft g in my head makes this sentence read VERY differently.

But I'm also showing my ignorance of what GIS is. ((And please tell me those last two words do not rhyme.))

Hussar said:

But I'm also showing my ignorance of what GIS is. ((And please tell me those last two words do not rhyme.))

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Geographic
Information
System

I’ve never pronounced as a word, always saying each letter.

AdmundfortGeographer said:

Geographic
Information
System

I’ve never pronounced as a word, always saying each letter.

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I remember a panel show with comedian Bill Baily (Qi to be exact) talking about a bird's GIS score and he did pronounce it rhyming with whiz. Some sort of bird watching thing as I recall.

Anyway, I think I've beaten this joke long enough.