Any Supers Game that feels Super?

I started with HERO back with its first edition, when it was called Champions.
Ditto. But there wasn't really anything quite like it back in the day, whereas folks who didn't watch it grow from scratch lack the grounding (and nostalgia) we have, and there are so many more multi-purpose use-for-any-genre RPG engines out there now HERO isn't likely to be the first thing newer players reach for.

And while I'll agree that HERO is really not as slow as people often claim (it's mostly character generation that takes time, as with many, many games), it's pretty hard to argue that it doesn't see some real slowdown in combat due to its fistfuls-of-dice approach. No matter how fast you are at reading a bunch of six siders (and I played enough HERO and SFB and GW minis games to be pretty darn quick) counting the BODY and STUN on 14d6 every swing takes longer than (say) rolling three dice and looking for the middle value. Here in 2024 you could obviously fix that with a simple app to do the rolling and counting for you, but IME that doesn't happen much. People like the tactile sensations and that distinctive clatter too much.
Part of my embrace of the game was the realization that, for 95% of situations in play, everything I needed was on my character sheet. In an actual play session, you almost don’t need the rulebook.
Very true, although I'd contend that's true of most really well-designed systems these days. The fact that a game engine from the early 80s manages to do it too is a real argument in its favor IMO.
 

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Theory of Games

Disaffected Game Warrior
Wearing the Cape is another one I haven't seen mentioned. It's based on the "Wearing the Cape" novels (which I recommend) for the setting. It's FATE-derived if I remember correctly, though.
Wild Talents, with that One Roll Engine, is easily the most lethal superhero system. I'm not a fan of dice pool systems, but I found the brutality of its Hard dice entertaining.

Anyone remember Truth & Justice? Talk about a well written Rules-Lite supers rpg? That's a good one. Its section on the superhero genre and how to RP it is peerless.

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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
No matter how fast you are at reading a bunch of six siders (and I played enough HERO and SFB and GW minis games to be pretty darn quick) counting the BODY and STUN on 14d6 every swing takes longer than (say) rolling three dice and looking for the middle value.
There is no denying that tallying the results of a big attack can be time consuming.
 

aramis erak

Legend
In know you're also familiar with "Cortex" Marvel Hero... how does it compare with Sentinels? Are there are any parts you'd port from one game system to the other if you had a magic wand?
The general range of abilities is similar, but the differences in the core mechanic are profound.
MHRP/Cortex Prime Heroic, you're rolling a pool which varies in size:
  • 1 Affiliation
  • 1 Distinction
  • 1 power from first powerset
  • 0-1 power from second powerset (if any, fairly common)
  • 0-1 power from third powerset, if any (very rare)
  • 0-1 from the mundane skills, if one applies
  • 0-1 from an asset
  • 0-1 from a scene asset
  • 0-1 from a foe's damage
  • 0-many bought with plot points to grab extra powers, skills, or assets.
Powersets need a bit of explanation: they're a themed group of powers, but generally, only one at a time is used. (The sets also have modifiers: SFX and Limits. SFX are reusable; Limits are one use then penalty.)

So, a pool of 3 to 10-ish dice. Most of which will be d6, d8, and d10...
Roll the pool, pull the 1's out, decide if you take the PP for the GM imposing complications. Pick two for the success total. the remaining die with the most sides becomes the effect - if creating an asset, it's the die size; if doing damage, it's the minimum step marked. If you tried to do two things, each gets a separate effect die, provided you have dice left in the pool.

Most NPC supers have a very slightly abridged sheet. Minion types only get a dice rating as a group.

Also, the player turn is described as one or two panels... direct correspondence to comic books; in play, I find it feels more like the movies and 80's sat morning cartoons..

Meanwhile, in Sentinel Comics

powers are individual, but you get several, and use only one at a time.


Narrate until the GM calls for a roll ("to do it, do it!" mode), then pick the best fit power, best fit quality, and current status dice. The GM can set a difficulty level, but if using one of the special abilities on your sheet, the difficulty is already stated. Hard rolls are use lowest die; easy rolls are highest die, most rolls are middle die. Some special abilities use high+low or high+mid.
All actions use one of 7 moves; the five generic ones are attack, defend, boost, hinder, and overcome. The others are heal, minion maker, and summon; minion maker and summon are not on the standard list, but tied to the relevant special abilities; all three require an enabling special ability to be done.
The Status Die is based upon current hit points... but it's not always descending. Some heroes get stronger as they get hurt more, others get weaker, others still have the same die throughout.
Major villains have a slightly abridged sheet, but operate exactly like PCs.
Minor villains get a single die. When they take damage, if they can roll over it, no effect; if not, they step down. If the roll doubled is under the damage, they go pop right away.
Minions also get a single die... but damage is different: If they can beat the damage with their die, it steps down; if not, they pop.
Minor Villains can do any basic action, minions are often limited to one or two.
Boosts can be tangible things, situations, or even morale; same for hinders. These correspond to creating assets in MHRP.
Attacks, Defends, and Heals all use the kept die as the effect
Boosts, Hinders, and minion makers all use a result table. Summoners generally use the result as a number of a specified size of minion.

Also, many times, the environment has an action. Most of the time, really. It's an enemy in its own right.

Further, the scene has a progress track; whichever is closer to red, your status or the scene's, is which status die you use and whether or not you have access to your yellow and red special abilities.

One other element, one that throws some, is that when you're down, you aren't entirely out. You still get a turn, with access only to your Out Ability. It's tied to one of the char gen steps.

That's the other element Sentinel Comics has a structure of Roll and/or pick. It's often "roll X dice, keep 1 or 2 of them, summing the kept dice and looking on the table"... the number of dice is specified by the prior step, excepting the first, which is 2d10.

They feel very different due to the combination of how the core mechanics work, and how players and GMs are guided by the art in the books... SC often has a turn being 2 to 5 panels, one of which is a GM & Player panel; the others being the actions. MHRP is fairly clear that an action is one panel of action, and maybe a second of result. EG: the classic ① fist-in-motion, dialogue "It's Clobberin' Time!!!", and impact flash, ② Thing's opponent half-buried in some piece of scenery... and a nearby callout sidebar about the illo.
The equivalent in the SC rulebook would be ① player narrating "I'm running up, my fists balled, ready to... ② character in the shockwave of their fist... ③ GM and player discussing the roll, ④ the impact, and the dice in a split panel, Lt rolled 2, Damage was 5⑤ the stars over the lieutenant NPC with stars over his head imbeded in a nearby wall.
The difference in presentation has in fact affected how I as a GM run the two. And how I've explained them.

I like marvel for the freewheeling, let's make an asset, lots of dice... It also has lots of tradeoff choices. It's very common for players to declare (and do) two, sometimes 3 actions in a turn.

I like Sentinel for it's less defined character limits and needing no more than 3 standard poly sets. It also makes it really clear: ONE rolled action per turn. Narrate your actions until the GM stops you for a roll - a policy lifted from Apocalypse World (and thanks to Vincent in the Starter Kit)...

Which is better? Depends on my mood. And my players.
 

There is no denying that tallying the results of a big attack can be time consuming.
It's one reason why many HERO fans don't actually use it for Champions/supers much these days. Other genres usually call for small dice pools and play a fair bit quicker because of it. The last three Champions games I played in were low-power street hero/agent campaigns for the same reason - rolling 10d6 was rare and made people sit up and take notice, where it would be nothing special in a mid-tier supers game.
 

The GM can set a difficulty level, but if using one of the special abilities on your sheet, the difficulty is already stated. Hard rolls are use lowest die; easy rolls are highest die, most rolls are middle die. Some special abilities use high+low or high+mid.
There's no such thing as a difficulty level in Sentinels, and the closest a GM gets to setting one would be applying a situational mod to a roll - and even that would normally be the result of an environmental twist or possibly an ongoing challenge. Just pulling a mod out of nowhere would require some serious narrative justification for me, although YMMV. The GM definitely doesn't get to redefine effect dice on the fly, at least not by RAW. They're always either the default Mid die, or defined by the ability in use when they aren't. There are also many abilities that read the same die for different things, eg the villain ability that uses Max+Mid+Min dice to Attack and then Hinders the user with Max and costs them Mid+Min dice Health, or the heroic Red ability that lets you use your Mid die to take a basic action anytime you use an action ability. There are even a few oddball abilities that do something funky like rolling, using the effect to Hinder and then dealing damage to the Hinder target equal to the value (1-4, usually) of the penalty created.

They found quite a bit design space for abilities despite only having three dice to work with, although Cortex's potentially larger pools still feel more versatile to me.
the five generic ones are attack, defend, boost, hinder, and overcome.
Overcome is the system's catch-all action for everything that isn't one of the other basic actions, from singing karaoke to disarming a nuke to trying to talk a minion into surrendering. They come up most often in actions scenes when dealing with challenges (although they also see a fair bit of use as a hiding/spotting mechanic with some groups), and they're not uncommon in social scenes either (although many of those don't call for any rolls at all). The fact that they're also weighted to create twists frequently is the game's main "succeed at a cost" mechanic, and gives a creative GM a lot of narrative leeway. Overcomes using your Green Principles are an easy way to rack up hero points to give an edge to the team next session, so keeping an eye out for opportunities to take them is important.

I'd also contend that minor twists are the game's primary metacurrency, since you can pay for many things by taking one. Lots more on that here.
Major villains have a slightly abridged sheet, but operate exactly like PCs.
It's considerably abridged, and they have access to all their abilities regardless of GYRO zone. Most villains only have 4-5 abilities (compared to a PC's average of 7-8) but their abilities are (usually) stronger than most hero Yellow abilities and even some Reds. Their status die is situational based on archetype, with only two (Bruisers and Fragile) of fourteen varying based on their Health. There's also wild variation in how powerful a given villain actually is even when using the same Approach/Archetype pairing but with different ability choices.

The fact that they're built using quite different rules than PCs (even though they play on the table very similarly) is a major difference between Cortex and the SCRPG. You can easily design a Cortex villain that a single PC can solo if desired. It's harder in SCRPG, where many villain builds are more than a match for any single hero. That's partly an outgrowth of the encounter design system, which (like the card game that started everything) is built around the assumption that you have 3-5 players and really kind of falls apart with 1 or 2. The system does team books well, not so much for solo title or even the old Marvel Two-In-One style duo books. Makes splitting the party a bit of an issue if combat's likely to happen.
Minor villains get a single die. When they take damage, if they can roll over it, no effect; if not, they step down. If the roll doubled is under the damage, they go pop right away.
Nope. To one-shot a lieutenant your total damage needs to be double their current die size, not whatever they rolled for a save. It's a major effort to scrape up 20 or 24 damage to drop a big lieutenant, and you usually wind up having to force a few failed saves to push them down to d8 or d6 where a 16 or 12 damage finisher is more attainable.
Boosts can be tangible things, situations, or even morale; same for hinders. These correspond to creating assets in MHRP.
Bonuses and penalties. Boost and Hinders are the actions you take to create them. The choice to go with fixed numerical values rather than Cortex's asset dice is an interesting divergence that goes back to that always-three-dice (barring single-die reactions) decision at the start of things.
Also, many times, the environment has an action. Most of the time, really. It's an enemy in its own right.
True, but many environments are partially or wholly neutral, spitting out twists and targets that might be helpful for one side or the other, or just plain hostile to all. They're a great way to loosely script a scene's action, especially if you have twists that play off one another, like a "sparking wires" Green challenge that makes a "fire starts" Yellow challenge worse if not solved in time - and that leads to a Red "explosion!" twist that hits harder if either of the previous challenges is still around.
 


Anyone remember Truth & Justice? Talk about a well written Rules-Lite supers rpg? That's a good one. Its section on the superhero genre and how to RP it is peerless.
Atomic Sock Monkey, right? I haven't seen it in person, but they did nice work with the fairy tale genre in Zorceror of Zo. Wouldn't be surprised if the same was true with supers. The PDQ system seems pretty adaptable.
 

Committed Hero

Adventurer
The more I play Sentinel Comics, the more I like it. If you want the flavor of a team supers comic I can't recommend it highly enough. That said, tactical gamers who aren't seeking that narrative experience fight back at this structure (these are the same people who solve James Bond's problems with a laser watch in every scene). I also wonder whether how dark a tone you can get, although that may just be the folks I've played with.
 

I also wonder whether how dark a tone you can get, although that may just be the folks I've played with.
I think you can go pretty dark with it, although the designers seem to have had a more bombastic Silver Age feel primarily in mind. Just dialing up mortality on the minions and lieutenants so heroes can't just casually declare they're disabling them without major injuries or death would make for a big shift in tone - broken bodies, emergency first aid and outright corpses will do that. Maybe apply a blanket save bonus for opting to use "less harmful" Attacks or something?

Getting a real fear of death or lasting injury for the PCs would be an even bigger step, but the combat system is built around the premise that you're going to go Out pretty regularly and you only die when you want. It would need some tweaking to change that. Maybe something like tracking negative Health applying a Major Twist at -Max Red Health, then a "lasts till end of next session" Major Twist at twice that and "just die already" at thrice? So a hero that normally hits Red at 11 Health gets hurt at -11, hurt even worse at -22, and dies at -33. Most villains won't keep deliberately beating someone who's Out if there are other active heroes, but it makes getting people off the field to avoid getting caught in multi-target Attacks important. I think I'd still let Montage Scene healing start from zero as normal since you don't want people totally out of the rest of the session. How else are you going to see the awful effects of their injuries? :)

Alternately, you could let a PC stay alive no matter what if they want but take a Major Twist that lasts one extra session each time they hit a -X multiple. At some point you'll be so mauled it'll be time to retire for a while even if you do survive. Maybe the same character comes back at a collection reboot point, possibly greatly changed from the experience.

Major Twists can be godawful brutal (lose one or more abilities, lose access to one or more powers or qualities, lose something/someone precious, etc. - and that's just official suggested stuff) and can easily represent many types of serious lasting wounds or disempowerment if chosen carefully.
 

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