Any Supers Game that feels Super?

Thomas Shey · Jun 23, 2024

aramis erak said:
I think you need to reread his post.

THe interp I get from it is the only superheroes worthy of the name are those motivated by the potential for others' loss.

I'm also not sold your read of even Arrow's early motivations is entirely accurate.

The key question is, when their theoretically primary motivation comes in conflict with harm to the innocent, what do they do? The Hulk is a weird case because some versions of him are what's sometimes called "unclear on the concept" when it comes to harm, but even he will normally go out of the way to avoid bystanders when fighting with the military or whatever.

This doesn't mean there aren't times when writers will do things that work against this, because deconstructionists are gonna deconstruct, whether it works in keeping with long established personality traits of the character or not, but that just means that when they're being in that mode they aren't being superheroes either.

Thomas Shey · Jun 23, 2024

pemerton said:
@aramis erak

I took @Thomas Shey's point to be that good super hero RPGing centres character motivations other than id-driven survival and self-aggrandisement of the classic D&D variety.

Pointing to characters like Deadpool, Arrow, The Hulk etc doesn't refute this point. It reinforces it: none of these characters figure in stories of brute survival and power-ups of the classic D&D sort.

I'm drawing a more narrow line than that (though I do agree with it as part of that) because I think people use "superhero" over-broadly to describe anything carrying any of the trappings and in particular, in use in games its liable to create destructive dissonance in expectations in a group if you're trying for a more broad people-with-powers game.

pemerton · Jun 23, 2024

Thomas Shey said:
I'm drawing a more narrow line than that (though I do agree with it as part of that) because I think people use "superhero" over-broadly to describe anything carrying any of the trappings and in particular, in use in games its liable to create destructive dissonance in expectations in a group if you're trying for a more broad people-with-powers game.

Yep, your (more narrow) meaning has come through in your last few replies.

aramis erak · Jun 24, 2024

Thomas Shey said:
I'm drawing a more narrow line than that (though I do agree with it as part of that) because I think people use "superhero" over-broadly to describe anything carrying any of the trappings and in particular, in use in games its liable to create destructive dissonance in expectations in a group if you're trying for a more broad people-with-powers game.

So, using a non-literary definition of hero. (Literary hero is just a protagonist the audience is supposed to identify with and hope for the success of.)
And not the Patton definition, either. ("The real hero is the man who fights even though he is scared.”)
Nor the movie's misquote... ("A hero is a man who dies for his country.")

No, instead, "does things for the right reasons..."

If a rich man feeds the poor because he's a man of faith and thus feels obliged to give alms, is he a hero?
If a different rich man feeds the poor to prevent social unrest that would hurt his bottom line more than the price of the food, is he a hero?
And if a third one feeds the poor for a tax break, is he a hero?

Does it matter to the person humbling themself to be in such line?
Having been at a couple points the person in that line, I never questioned why while in it; I only appreciated that they did.

DEFCON 1 · Jun 24, 2024

I ran a Supers game with FATE Core using the Venture City sourcebook. Yes, I did ignore quite a bit of the default 'cyberpunk' aesthetic that VC uses for their setting, but as far as actual superpower mechanics and the like designed for FATE Core, it seemed to work very well. And because it's FATE, it was very much more of a narrative game rather than a heavy combat game you would get with Champions or M&M.

Starfox · Jun 24, 2024

aramis erak said:
Beg to differ... Deadpool, Blade, any of the noir type supers, both in the 30's/40's and the 90's/00's...

Deadpool fights evil because it amuses him to do so.
Blade is a hero in the greek sense - the protagonist and one the audience is supposed to emotionally bond to, and has superpowers, albeit from a supernatural curse...
Ant Man is, well, pretty much mercenary at first. It's a Job.

And then there's the DC Television Multiverse, most specifically Batman and both Arrows... Ollie at first is fixated on undoing the corrupt legacy, no matter whether or not the side effects hurt those nearby; only later does he start to take into account the side effects other than being caught. Thea, once she dons the hood, wait, no, from the get-go, is fixated upon personal goals that just happen to include taking down mostly the same folk as her brother, and getting totally blotto drunk and/or stoned. Then we get both Black Canary and White Canary... both radical serial murderers... just ones who take on individuals who happen to have gotten away with things. Oh, and Flash's mentor is a time travelling universe hopping psychopath... The only ones that really are specifically
The Arrowverse is divided; we have the Arrow series with a bunch of wealthy sociopathic putative heroes who happen to do less harm than good, and Batman, who's no better, vs the genuinely out for the common good Flash. I didn't see enough of Constantine to know much about him.

And that's before the local hero who is just ideologically opposed to other supers... Baron Dr. Victor von Doom...
Not always presented as a villain. Not always presented as a hero. Really doesn't give a rat's arse about anywhere but Latveria and, for sentimental reasons, Marvel's version of NYC....

And, of course, there is The Hulk. In his Bruce Banner phase, yes, he cares. When in Hulk Mode, he's more a force of nature than a heroic being... but usually, when hulked out, either Bruce aimed himself at the bad guys or some other hero directs him... at least until Bruce learns to... "Stay Angry."

This is all true, and also the reason I don't really like the arrowverse. To each their own.

Starfox · Jun 24, 2024

DEFCON 1 said:
I ran a Supers game with FATE Core using the Venture City sourcebook. Yes, I did ignore quite a bit of the default 'cyberpunk' aesthetic that VC uses for their setting, but as far as actual superpower mechanics and the like designed for FATE Core, it seemed to work very well. And because it's FATE, it was very much more of a narrative game rather than a heavy combat game you would get with Champions or M&M.

Over midsummer I was with friends and the DnD movie was playing in the background. It made me realize how unlike the action in that movie is a typical DnD game. There are no battle lines in the movie, no delivering attack sequences, actually very few attacks at all. Instead there are stunts, stunts, stunts. DnD grew out of tactical miniatures war games and it shows. It plays like mass combat at a renaissance fair. Which is good if that is what you want.

The movies are more like goofy low-powered superhero action. And I like that. I think this is the reason I have been moving to Blades in the Dark lately. In DnD, a non-combat character is likely to still end up in trouble because combat has such a high priority. To quote Warhammer Fantasy orks, "if we weren't supposed to kill 'umies and stunties, they wouldn't be where we can find 'em". If that orc can move next to you and attack, he will.

In BitD, it is always the players call to initiate action. An acrobatic rogue is unlikely to initiate an action that involves repeatedly hitting with a heavy sword. Instead, he'll do stuff that is done in the DnD movie. He may still get hit, there are consequences unless you score a full success. But it still won't look like the battle lines of DnD.

And yes, I am a bit off-topic here, but it it my firm belief that the DnD movie is a better model for a superhero game than DnD is. Fate is such a game, and in fact goes even further on the role-playing side.

Thomas Shey · Jun 24, 2024

Starfox said:
And yes, I am a bit off-topic here, but it it my firm belief that the DnD movie is a better model for a superhero game than DnD is. Fate is such a game, and in fact goes even further on the role-playing side.

Well, honestly, even those of us who prefer a more traditional style superhero game aren't looking for a lot of the sort of things D&D brings to the table, but I'm probably thinking of different things than you are.

Starfox · Jun 24, 2024

Thomas Shey said:
Well, honestly, even those of us who prefer a more traditional style superhero game aren't looking for a lot of the sort of things D&D brings to the table, but I'm probably thinking of different things than you are.

Which is of course A-ok!

Thondor · Jun 26, 2024

Designer of Simple Superheroes here (which may go back to it's variant name Superheroes Unleashed in it's next edition.)

If you want a game that runs fairly trad, but you can quickly brainstorm your own unique powers, have a look. It also provides Relations for your heroes to care about, which are the main method for you to regain Strainpoints. (Both a de facto mental defense/damage track, and something you can spend for bonus dice and stunts.)

Your powers matter, and aren't just narrative dressing. I had a recent complement from a GM who has run it a fair bit who said "If I want a game where you (the player) feels like they are a superhero, Simple Superheroes is what I reach for."

It plays pretty quick and handles different power levels (i.e. I feel you should pick a power level for your whole group -- but characters can still feel like they have different power levels.) I run games at conventions all the time, and folks brainstorm characters in 20-30 minutes.

Learn some more here, links to rules summary, links to sample characters, and where you can get a copy:
Simple Superheroes Issues

Appreciate folks taking a look, and would love to answer questions!

Any Supers Game that feels Super?

Thomas Shey

Legend

Thomas Shey

Legend

pemerton

Legend

aramis erak

Legend

DEFCON 1

Legend

Starfox

Hero

Starfox

Hero

Thomas Shey

Legend

Starfox

Hero

Thondor

I run Compose Dream Games RPG Marketplace

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