D&D 1E AD&D- The DM Player

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
In a lot of discussions about AD&D (1e, for you purists out there!), a repeated concept is the idea of "secret rules". Things players were not meant to know. Whether it's your precise chance to hit (at least before the publishing of the Player's Screen in '85), or not telling your Assassin that he can train to become a master of brewing poisons, there seems to be this clear line of demarcation between what players should know, and what DM's should know, as evidenced by Gary's comment (presumably in jest?) about any player reading the DMG is deserving of a less than noble death.

Not going to get into the philosophy of that here, but what I find myself asking is, were DM's never supposed to play the game?

Because the instant one learns how to be a DM, by reading the DMG and running adventures, they now know all this stuff. Was it just assumed that anyone who had this information would simply pretend not to, sort of a gentleman's agreement, or was it assumed that all DM's would be "forever DM's", and once you "graduated", that was that?

I highly doubt the latter would be the case, since Gary himself played the game!
 

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Reynard

Legend
Supporter
I don't have my DMG at hand, but I seem to recall discussions about punishing the use of "player knowledge" in a game. That would apply to both DMs and players that secretly read the DMG.

Which itself is kind of ironic, since earned meta-knowledge and its application is a sigh of "skilled play."

My guess is this was one of those soapbox positions Gygax took as his persona, not something he actually believed or implemented in play in his own games. Gygax the Viking Hat GM was a character he played. Too bad so many GMs thought it was legitimate.
 


Lanefan

Victoria Rules
In a lot of discussions about AD&D (1e, for you purists out there!), a repeated concept is the idea of "secret rules". Things players were not meant to know. Whether it's your precise chance to hit (at least before the publishing of the Player's Screen in '85), or not telling your Assassin that he can train to become a master of brewing poisons, there seems to be this clear line of demarcation between what players should know, and what DM's should know, as evidenced by Gary's comment (presumably in jest?) about any player reading the DMG is deserving of a less than noble death.

Not going to get into the philosophy of that here, but what I find myself asking is, were DM's never supposed to play the game?

Because the instant one learns how to be a DM, by reading the DMG and running adventures, they now know all this stuff. Was it just assumed that anyone who had this information would simply pretend not to, sort of a gentleman's agreement, or was it assumed that all DM's would be "forever DM's", and once you "graduated", that was that?
I know for my own part that once I started DMing and got to know the ropes, playing became a bit less fun as I'd seen (and couldn't unsee) what went on under the hood and thus much of the mystery was gone.

This is, in fact, the one true regret I hold about ever becoming a DM.

And maybe not to Gygax's extent, but I do think the DMG - and even more so, the Monster Manual(s) - should be off limits to non-DM players and that DM players should do their best (impossible though it may be) to, when on the player side of the screen, forget what they read in there.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
I know for my own part that once I started DMing and got to know the ropes, playing became a bit less fun as I'd seen (and couldn't unsee) what went on under the hood and thus much of the mystery was gone.

This is, in fact, the one true regret I hold about ever becoming a DM.

And maybe not to Gygax's extent, but I do think the DMG - and even more so, the Monster Manual(s) - should be off limits to non-DM players and that DM players should do their best (impossible though it may be) to, when on the player side of the screen, forget what they read in there.
It's interesting though, because I read the Monster Manual long before I ever got a chance to play the game. I'd been curious for quite some time about Dungeons & Dragons- my first look at the books were at the Joliet Public Library, where they had the Monster Manual I, the Fiend Folio, and the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide. I was fascinated about the lore behind many of these strange creatures, and remained so ever since.

I loved the Ecology of the X articles in Dragon, and this soon expanded to me becoming a lore junkie for a lot of things, not just D&D. Whenever I play an adventure and we encounter a strange monster, it's fun for me to realize "Oh! It's a Neo-Otyugh!" when my fellow players have no idea what it is, and they seem entertained when I share with them lore about creatures that, to them, are little more than a stat block.

Ditto for little references to the deep lore of the game. So I never felt that anyone's experience is anything other than enriched by reading monster books. Oh sure, maybe there's some fringe benefit in knowing how to kill a Rakshasa or that the 4e Dracolich has a reaction stun it can use on anyone so foolish as to try and engage it in melee, but at this point, there are so many variations of classic monsters out there, from edition changes, variant stat blocks, and just DM's putting their designer hat on and fiddling with things that it's really nothing I would worry about.

Would things have been different had I played the game before reading the books? I can't say, but I can't say that it affected my sense of wonder- take the DMG for example. Reading about the Rain of Colorless Fire or the Invoked Devastation, learning about who Bigby and Rary and Grazzt and Tasha were, and being fascinated by the wonderful magic items (many of which I would never, ever get to see in play, let alone own) made me fall in love with the game far more than if I'd never been exposed to such.

One thing I lament today is how little players of the game seem to know about the worlds their characters interact with. Not long ago, a player in my current gaming group exclaimed "what the heck is a Derro?" when our group encountered the mad, sad, bad little jerks. I was happy to be able to explain their origins, going back to the Shaver Mystery stories.

Or when some of my gamer friends talked about Baldur's Gate 3, and I was able to quickly explain little details they didn't understand, like why there were so many Tieflings running around from Elturel, or the history of the Githyanki that enhanced the experience for them.

But that's a larger issue with the game and how it is evolved, that doesn't have much to do with the question I posed in this thread.
 


Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
Supporter
In a lot of discussions about AD&D (1e, for you purists out there!), a repeated concept is the idea of "secret rules". Things players were not meant to know. Whether it's your precise chance to hit (at least before the publishing of the Player's Screen in '85), or not telling your Assassin that he can train to become a master of brewing poisons, there seems to be this clear line of demarcation between what players should know, and what DM's should know, as evidenced by Gary's comment (presumably in jest?) about any player reading the DMG is deserving of a less than noble death.

Not going to get into the philosophy of that here, but what I find myself asking is, were DM's never supposed to play the game?

Because the instant one learns how to be a DM, by reading the DMG and running adventures, they now know all this stuff. Was it just assumed that anyone who had this information would simply pretend not to, sort of a gentleman's agreement, or was it assumed that all DM's would be "forever DM's", and once you "graduated", that was that?

I highly doubt the latter would be the case, since Gary himself played the game!

I think @Reynard mostly covered this, so I will add support.

The thing with Gygax is that if you want to find something to contradict what he said, just keep reading. Because he will contradict it, sometimes within the same paragraph.

"Skilled play" was a well-known (and predominant) mode of play at the time. So the idea that players didn't use some meta-knowledge is ... absurd.

The assumed model of play for early D&D was skilled play.

Although he was a storyteller, there was no effort to thread a plot through his dungeon. Keep in mind that this was the dawn of role-playing and some concepts of 2020 gaming weren't known then. It was entirely find the monsters, fight the monster, and take his treasure. Some of the dungeon chambers were filled with surprises. There were creatures hiding above the doors, there were creatures looking like tables and chests, and there were surprises in plain sight that would attack as we moved in the rooms. It got so that I would say upon entering any new area, “Gary, I look up, and down, and all around the area before I walk in. That stopped a lot of ugly surprises from happening.

We learned to be very cautious in Gary's dungeon. We started tossing torches and then lanterns into dark rooms. It wasn't too many burnt scrolls and broken potion bottles to have us change our ways. Soon, we were tossing in coins with Continual Light tossed on them. This caution had consequences as wandering creatures would be attracted to the magical light.

-James Ward

The reasoning behind this was, well, fairly simple. D&D was a game. Like any game, you could play it well (or poorly!). While there was definitely roleplaying, it was rarely the full-on RPing we sometimes see today. To put it in terms of acting; some people prefer to think of RPing like Daniel Day Lewis- to fully inhabit a character. But early RPing was more like being a movie star, like Tom Cruise. Sure, he's playing a role, but he's also, always, Tom Cruise.

So now we get into the more contentious area of skilled play; the issue of metagaming. If you look above to what James Ward wrote (and what others say), you will see that there is an evolution in play. Bob I might get killed by traps below him, so Bob II looks down, but gets killed by traps above him. Bob III looks above and below, but gets hit by traps to the side. By the time Bob IV is rolling through the dungeon, he's looking up, down, and all around.

But wait- why is Bob IV doing that? Because that's how Bob I-III died! And how does Bob IV know that? Because the player knows that. Sure, you can retcon some sort of reason ("And the news of the deaths of all adventurers shall be read out in the Ye Ancient and Hallowed Halls of Bob...."), but in reality it's the acquisition of player skill- when Bob IV dies and Legolas I is created, Legolas I will also be looking out. This is similar to the age-old "troll debate." When a character see a troll regenerating, does the character know what to do to end the regeneration?

Well, back when the game was still new, it was just assumed that players would know these things, such as information about monsters, and use them. In 1977, Dragon Magazine published an article in Dragon #10 about how to generate random monsters, because "the players always know too much. ... The answer is to occasionally throw a monster at the party that keeps them on their toes, one that they have never seen before because it is unique. No rules cover it, so they have to find out the hard way what it’s like."

This doesn't mean that certain activities were not considered beyond the pale; for example, I am hard-pressed to think of anytime when (for example) a player buying a module and reading through it prior to playing it wouldn't be considered poor form, if not outright cheating. But while roleplaying was always part of the game, a key differentiating component, there wasn't the same issue with metagaming because with the skilled play paradigm, it was assumed that you were playing a game and act accordingly.


However...

I also think that Gygax is trying to speak to some of the "magic" and "mystery" of the game, which is to say- keep some things secret, so that there will always be new discoveries. It's just really inconsistent, and, to be honest, the idea of having player abilities be secret especially when they are in a published book is bizarre, and I can't imagine that even Gygax thought it was a sustainable model.

(In fairness, there were a large number of people that just liked to play, and never read the DMG, back then. I mean... as we all know today, no one reads the DMG.)
 




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