D&D General On Early D&D and Problematic Faves: How to Grapple with the Sins of the Past

Thomas Shey · Saturday at 5:16 PM

MGibster said:
When I disagree with someone's conclusion I go after their premises. i.e. Their arguments in favor of that conclusion. To me, this is just the basics of what I was taught to do in middle and high school when we had to write persuasive essays, but some people find that particular method of arguing very annoying.

Yeah, I've seen a number of people get pretty soggy when I note "Since I don't agree with your premise, I don't agree with your conclusion." I don't think they're always deliberately trying to beg the question, but I think sometimes that's what it comes down to.

Umbran · Saturday at 6:46 PM

Reynard said:
Maybe consider taking the word at face value instead.

Maybe consider not making this about me, personally.

SteveC · Saturday at 7:32 PM

Thomas Shey said:
Yeah, I've seen a number of people get pretty soggy when I note "Since I don't agree with your premise, I don't agree with your conclusion." I don't think they're always deliberately trying to beg the question, but I think sometimes that's what it comes down to.

It has been my experience that this is the most common reason debates fail. If you don't agree on a common premise, you aren't even arguing the same issue. That's true for political debates especially. But for our purposes, people sometimes just don't agree with the premise and then want to go on and argue something completely different. It fails and we end up with conversations in parallel rather than a debate.

Thomas Shey · Saturday at 7:45 PM

SteveC said:
It has been my experience that this is the most common reason debates fail. If you don't agree on a common premise, you aren't even arguing the same issue. That's true for political debates especially. But for our purposes, people sometimes just don't agree with the premise and then want to go on and argue something completely different. It fails and we end up with conversations in parallel rather than a debate.

Well, even when they accept that premise matters, sometimes its a case of thinking their premise is so obviously correct that it doesn't need to be defended. In some contexts there's also a case where they're not interested in talking to people who don't accept that premise (there are certain, shall we say, ethical/social ones where I'll freely admit to being in that one).

And of course sometimes the basic premise has been derived in ways that are going to be hard to demonstrate to someone that does not share the same experiences. I've got positions I've arrived at within this hobby I derived over decades of interacting with a lot of different people and listening to their experiences. If people don't share that, its going to be hard to demonstrate it in any particularly useful fashion given its formed by a gestalt of all that, but its also going to require considerable work to move me, so it ends up usually just being an impasse. Naturally the same can apply to other people, but its usually relatively easy to tell when you've hit that after a bit of unpacking.

Bedrockgames · 2024-07-14T01:35:02+0100

Reynard said:
Sure but it was part of a much more dangerous context, specifically the cycle of panics about child abuse (up to and including cult sacrifice) that grip societies under particular pressures (including, but not limited to, pandemics, food insecurity, economic downturns and political instability). I do not know of anyone who lost their jobs or went to jail over the D&D part of the Satanic Panic, but a lot of young child care professionals sure did.

I think for most of us gamers it largely resulted in things like our books being taken away or prohibited. Mine were confiscated by the parents along with my Iron Maiden tapes. Though that ended towards the end of 8th grade for me. I had to buy a bunch of RPGs that weren't D&D in order to have RPG books in the house (it was D&D specifically that was the concern for my folks)

MGibster · 2024-07-14T02:00:29+0100

Umbran said:
Maybe consider not making this about me, personally.

Should I take down my Umbran shrine?

SteveC said:
It has been my experience that this is the most common reason debates fail. If you don't agree on a common premise, you aren't even arguing the same issue. That's true for political debates especially.

What's a successful debate versus a failure?

Bedrockgames said:
I think for most of us gamers it largely resulted in things like our books being taken away or prohibited. Mine were confiscated by the parents along with my Iron Maiden tapes.

Which is disappointing because Iron Maiden had a few songs about historical figures such as Alexander the Great. I can't believe a parent would confiscate educational materials.

Hussar · 2024-07-14T02:01:46+0100

Bedrockgames said:
I do think we can separate the art from the artist a lot more than we are doing now (and I think we ought to do that more).

And yet, I've seen you repeatedly insist that the author's intent is key to understanding a text. How do you square that circle?

jmartkdr2 · 2024-07-14T02:04:20+0100

Mirrorrorrim said:
JK was always the way she is. Most fans just didn't know. They believed the illusion, and filled in their own blanks to justify their adoration. It happens with so many people who become scrutinized by fame, their privacy compromised by fans and enemies alike. Evil and good are not binary. It's not a balancing act. A good act like feeding the homeless does not wipe out one's evil of oppressing other groups. An aforementioned homeless person might see that person as a pure hero if there is a veil hiding the rest of their darkness.

I think he shock with her is that the books are largely about inclusiveness and against prejudice - it's a core theme of the book that you shouldn't judge people by their birth but by their actions.

So "unless you're trans" kinda comes out of nowhere, like an Austin Powers joke. Except it isn't funny in the real world.

Hussar · 2024-07-14T02:10:14+0100

jmartkdr2 said:
I think he shock with her is that the books are largely about inclusiveness and against prejudice - it's a core theme of the book that you shouldn't judge people by their birth but by their actions.

So "unless you're trans" kinda comes out of nowhere, like an Austin Powers joke. Except it isn't funny in the real world.

Not to get too deep into it here, but, yes, I would tend to agree. I've used Harry Potter in my ESL classes for years. I mean, I've got 8 year old Chinese kids that know what Griffindor is. This is a HUGE world thing. So, yeah, I can totally see where people are coming from. Judging from the books, you'd expect one thing and then the real world steps in and... wow.

Which makes it really, really hard to use these books in my classroom to be honest. While I don't have any trans students, there certainly are some in other classes with other teachers. I have ZERO interest in adding to their problems. Life in high school is hard enough. Life as a trans person, in Japan, in high school... I cannot begin to imagine. So, yeah, I don't use Harry Potter in my English classes anymore.

What else can I do?

Bedrockgames · 2024-07-14T02:27:48+0100

Hussar said:
And yet, I've seen you repeatedly insist that the author's intent is key to understanding a text. How do you square that circle?

It isn't a circle that needs to be squared. When talking about the meaning of a work, intent is important. I never said it was all that mattered. When we were discussing it the last time around, I was rejecting the idea that it was just all subject to peoples individual interpretations. Individual interpretations matter, but if the author intended the opposite of how someone reads it, that is important. That doesn't mean I can't juggle the fact that an artist who was an ugly human being, made beautiful art, and separate those two things out. This is about separating an artist's personal character from their work or still being able to enjoy work despite it.

D&D General On Early D&D and Problematic Faves: How to Grapple with the Sins of the Past

Thomas Shey

Legend

Umbran

Mod Squad

SteveC

Doing the best imitation of myself

Thomas Shey

Legend

Bedrockgames

Legend

MGibster

Legend

Hussar

Legend

jmartkdr2

Hero

Hussar

Legend

Bedrockgames

Legend

Similar Threads

Voidrunner's Codex