D&D Historian Benn Riggs On Gary Gygax & Sexism

D&D historian Ben Riggs delved into the facts.

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The recent book The Making of Original Dungeons & Dragons 1970-1977 talks about the early years of D&D. In the book, authors Jon Peterson and Jason Tondro talk about the way the game, and its writers, approached certain issues. Not surprisingly, this revelation received aggressive "pushback" on social media because, well, that sort of thing does--in fact, one designer who worked with Gygax at the time labelled it "slanderous".

D&D historian Ben Riggs--author of Slaying the Dragon--delved into the facts. Note that the below was posted on Twitter, in that format, not as an article.

D&D Co-Creator Gary Gygax was Sexist. Talking About it is Key to Preserving his Legacy.

The internet has been rending its clothes and gnashing its teeth over the introduction to an instant classic of TTRPG history, The Making of Original D&D 1970-1977. Published by Wizards of the Coast, it details the earliest days of D&D’s creation using amazing primary source materials.

Why then has the response been outrage from various corners of the internet? Well authors Jon Peterson and Jason Tondro mention that early D&D made light of slavery, disparaged women, and gave Hindu deities hit points. They also repeated Wizard’s disclaimer for legacy content which states:"These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed."

In response to this, an army of grognards swarmed social media to bite their shields and bellow. Early D&D author Rob Kuntz described Peterson and Tondro’s work as “slanderous.” On his Castle Oldskull blog, Kent David Kelly called it “disparagement.” These critics are accusing Peterson and Tondro of dishonesty. Lying, not to put too fine a point on it.So, are they lying? Are they making stuff up about Gary Gygax and early D&D?

Well, let's look at a specific example of what Peterson and Tondro describe as “misogyny “ from 1975's Greyhawk. Greyhawk was the first supplement ever produced for D&D. Written by Gary Gygax and Rob Kuntz, the same Rob Kuntz who claimed slander above, it was a crucial text in the history of the game. For example, it debuted the thief character class. It also gave the game new dragons, among them the King of Lawful Dragons and the Queen of Chaotic Dragons. The male dragon is good, and female dragon is evil. (See Appendix 1 below for more.)

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It is a repetition of the old trope that male power is inherently good, and female power is inherently evil. (Consider the connotations of the words witch and wizard, with witches being evil by definition, for another example.)

Now so-called defenders of Gygax and Kuntz will say that my reading of the above text makes me a fool who wouldn’t know dragon’s breath from a virtue signal. I am ruining D&D with my woke wokeness. Gygax and Kuntz were just building a fun game, and decades later, Peterson and Tondro come along to crap on their work by screeching about misogyny.

(I would also point out that as we are all white men of a certain age talking about misogyny, the worst we can expect is to be flamed online. Women often doing the same thing get rape or death threats.)

Critics of their work would say that Peterson and Tondro are reading politics into D&D. Except that when we return to the Greyhawk text, we see that it was actually Gygax and Kuntz who put “politics” into D&D.

The text itself comments on the fact that the lawful dragon is male, and the chaotic one is female. Gygax and Kuntz wrote: “Women’s lib may make whatever they wish from the foregoing.”


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The intent is clear. The female is a realm of chaos and evil, so of course they made their chaotic evil dragon a queen.

Yes, Gygax and Kuntz are making a game, but it is a game whose co-creator explicitly wrote into the rules that feminine power—perhaps even female equality—is by nature evil. There is little room for any other interpretation.

The so-called defenders of Gygax may now say that he was a man of his time, he didn’t know better, or some such. If only someone had told him women were people too in 1975! Well, Gygax was criticized for this fact of D&D at the time. And he left us his response.

Writing in EUROPA, a European fanzine, Gygax said:“I have been accused of being a nasty old sexist-male-Chauvinist-pig, for the wording in D&D isn’t what it should be. There should be more emphasis on the female role, more non-gendered names, and so forth."

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"I thought perhaps these folks were right and considered adding women in the ‘Raping and Pillaging[’] section, in the ‘Whores and Tavern Wenches’ chapter, the special magical part dealing with ‘Hags and Crones’...and thought perhaps of adding an appendix on ‘Medieval Harems, Slave Girls, and Going Viking’. Damn right I am sexist. It doesn’t matter to me if women get paid as much as men, get jobs traditionally male, and shower in the men’s locker room."

"They can jolly well stay away from wargaming in droves for all I care. I’ve seen many a good wargame and wargamer spoiled thanks to the fair sex. I’ll detail that if anyone wishes.”


So just to summarize here, Gygax wrote misogyny into the D&D rules. When this was raised with him as an issue at the time, his response was to offer to put rules on rape and sex slavery into D&D.

The outrage online directed at Peterson and Tondro is not only entirely misplaced and disproportional, and perhaps even dishonest in certain cases...

Part 2: D&D Co-Creator Gary Gygax was Sexist. Talking About it is Key to Preserving his Legacy....it is also directly harming the legacies of Gygax, Arneson, Kuntz and the entire first generation of genius game designers our online army of outraged grognards purport to defend.

How? Let me show you.The D&D player base is getting more diverse in every measurable way, including age, gender, sexual orientation, and race. To cite a few statistics, 81% of D&D players are Millenials or Gen Z, and 39% are women. This diversity is incredible, and not because the diversity is some blessed goal unto itself. Rather, the increasing diversity of D&D proves the vigor of the TTRPG medium. Like Japanese rap music or Soviet science fiction, the transportation of a medium across cultures, nations, and genders proves that it is an important method for exploring the human condition. And while TTRPGs are a game, they are also clearly an important method for exploring the human condition. The fact the TTRPG fanbase is no longer solely middle-aged Midwestern cis men of middle European descent...

...the fact that non-binary blerds and Indigenous trans women and fat Polish-American geeks like me and people from every bed of the human vegetable garden ...

find meaning in a game created by two white guys from the Midwest is proof that Gygax and Arneson were geniuses who heaved human civilization forward, even if only by a few feet.

So, as a community, how do we deal with the ugly prejudices of our hobby’s co-creator who also baked them into the game we love? We could pretend there is no problem at all, and say that anyone who mentions the problem is a liar. There is no misogyny to see. There is no **** and there is no stink, and anyone who says there is naughty word on your sneakers is lying and is just trying to embarrass you.

I wonder how that will go? Will all these new D&D fans decide that maybe D&D isn’t for them? They know the stink of misogyny, just like they know **** when they smell it. To say it isn’t there is an insult to their intelligence. If they left the hobby over this, it would leave our community smaller, poorer, and suggest that the great work of Gygax, Arneson, Kuntz, and the other early luminaries on D&D was perhaps not so great after all…

We could take the route of Disney and Song of the South. Wizards could remove all the PDFs of early D&D from DriveThruRPG. They could refuse to ever reprint this material again. Hide it. Bury it. Erase it all with copyright law and lawyers. Yet no matter how deeply you bury the past, it always tends to come back up to the surface again. Heck, there are whole podcast series about that. And what will all these new D&D fans think when they realize that a corporation tried to hide its own mistakes from them?

Again, maybe they decide D&D isn’t the game for them. Or maybe when someone tells you there is **** on your shoe, you say thanks, clean it off, and move on.

We honor the old books, but when they tell a reader they are a lesser human being, we should acknowledge that is not the D&D of 2024. Something like...

“Hey reader, we see you in all your wondrous multiplicity of possibility, and if we were publishing this today, it wouldn’t contain messages and themes telling some of you that you are less than others. So we just want to warn you. That stuff’s in there.”

Y’know, something like that legacy content warning they put on all those old PDFs on DriveThruRPG. And when we see something bigoted in old D&D, we talk about it. It lets the new, broad, and deep tribe of D&D know that we do not want bigotry in D&D today. Talking about it welcomes the entire human family into the hobby.To do anything less is to damn D&D to darkness. It hobbles its growth, gates its community, denies the world the joy of the game, and denies its creators their due. D&D’s creators were visionary game designers. They were also people, and people are kinda ****** up. So a necessary step in making D&D the sort of cultural pillar that it deserves to be is to name its bigotries and prejudices when you see them. Failure to do so hurts the game by shrinking our community and therefore shrinking the legacy of its creators.

Appendix 1: Yeah, I know Chaos isn’t the same as Evil in OD&D.

But I would also point out as nerdily as possible that on pg. 9 of Book 1 of OD&D, under “Character Alignment, Including Various Monsters and Creatures,” Evil High Priests are included under the “Chaos” heading, along with the undead. So I would put to you that Gygax did see a relationship between Evil and Chaos at the time.

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Look, folks, we know how a conversation like this goes on the internet. Because, internet. Read the rules you agreed to before replying. The banhammer will be used on those who don't do what they agreed to.
 

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Chaosmancer

Legend
I can't believe this got this many posts. Why does ANYBODY care about what somebody else did in the PAST?

We don't. If you had bothered to read the original post, or the first few posts after that, you would see that our issue is people attacking the historians for putting a VERY mild disclaimer on a huge collection of Gygax and Arneson's original notes and work. Mostly to note that the material contains sexism, poorly conceived concepts of slavery, and other issues. Those who don't like the fact that there is historical evidence that Gygax was sexist attacked them for their disclaimer, to which another historian responded with "no, they are correct, here is more evidence"

WE then started getting people coming out of the woodwork, utterly offended that we with no provocation attacked Gygax for no reason... and have to be consistently informed of the actual situation going on.

Grow up. As for making the game more inclusive. Whatever. My guess is that anybody who had friends that were gay or trans or whatever would allow them to play if they wanted. But don't expect other to go around SEEKING out someone else who is "insert issue of the day" and include them nor should they be forced to nor should they be excoriated for NOT including them. The most racist and phobic things anymore are coming from those who DEMAND other bend the knee to their thoughts and opinions via peer pressure and social media pressure who continually harass them until they either get their way or the other person is destroyed. The hilarity of the comments about bigotry and sexist and the various phobes are coming from people who STILL PLAY TODAY. FFS. If it's truly that offensive to you that a guy you can't stand wasn't perfect and you still play that is ON YOU and YOU alone. I literally laughed out loud at many of these posts as I hear about various forms of sexism that were obvious in the books back in the 80's and 90's, that were causing all this angst to the social justice cadre, while myself, a male, 4 other guys, 2 women played every weekend and had a blast. You know what never came up? Gary Gygax being a bad guy. Or how we didn't have enough boxes checked in our gaming group to match up to the future examinations by a new set of rules which would make our group homophobic since we didn't have any gays in the group nor did we have any trans people. We didn't exclude anybody we just didn't know any nor did we post anything LOOKING for gay or trans people to check a box. We were all friends. Now today I still play, happy to say 45 years and going strong playing DnD and other games, and our group consists of some guys, some girls, one of which is gay, and what I have yet to hear is how DnD is NOT inclusive enough. I mentioned I used to play before I moved to a new city and state and people said I'll play, good enough for me. When we did characters nobody stated they needed to make sure their PC was properly represented. Our lesbian player plays a barbarian orc female, yet she's only 5'1" and weighs about 90 lbs. It's a game of FANTASY. Enjoy the game for what it is. If your truly going to be either fully inclusive or make sure you game is completely represented, just don't play.

Somehow though, I don't think an accurate take on the current situation was your goal with this post.
 

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Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I can't believe this got this many posts. Why does ANYBODY care about what somebody else did in the PAST? Grow up. As for making the game more inclusive. Whatever. My guess is that anybody who had friends that were gay or trans or whatever would allow them to play if they wanted. But don't expect other to go around SEEKING out someone else who is "insert issue of the day" and include them nor should they be forced to nor should they be excoriated for NOT including them. The most racist and phobic things anymore are coming from those who DEMAND other bend the knee to their thoughts and opinions via peer pressure and social media pressure who continually harass them until they either get their way or the other person is destroyed. The hilarity of the comments about bigotry and sexist and the various phobes are coming from people who STILL PLAY TODAY. FFS. If it's truly that offensive to you that a guy you can't stand wasn't perfect and you still play that is ON YOU and YOU alone. I literally laughed out loud at many of these posts as I hear about various forms of sexism that were obvious in the books back in the 80's and 90's, that were causing all this angst to the social justice cadre, while myself, a male, 4 other guys, 2 women played every weekend and had a blast. You know what never came up? Gary Gygax being a bad guy. Or how we didn't have enough boxes checked in our gaming group to match up to the future examinations by a new set of rules which would make our group homophobic since we didn't have any gays in the group nor did we have any trans people. We didn't exclude anybody we just didn't know any nor did we post anything LOOKING for gay or trans people to check a box. We were all friends. Now today I still play, happy to say 45 years and going strong playing DnD and other games, and our group consists of some guys, some girls, one of which is gay, and what I have yet to hear is how DnD is NOT inclusive enough. I mentioned I used to play before I moved to a new city and state and people said I'll play, good enough for me. When we did characters nobody stated they needed to make sure their PC was properly represented. Our lesbian player plays a barbarian orc female, yet she's only 5'1" and weighs about 90 lbs. It's a game of FANTASY. Enjoy the game for what it is. If your truly going to be either fully inclusive or make sure you game is completely represented, just don't play.
You seem to care greatly. Hammering out a long reply, not even time for line breaks. That’s quite the angry rant. Are you OK?

But in answer to your question—“Why does ANYBODY care about what somebody else did in the PAST? “

The answer to your question is: people writing a history book. Like the book we’re discussing. Clue’s in the name.

Hope that helps.
 

Laura Henson

Villager
Anti-inclusive content
The intent is clear. The female is a realm of chaos and evil, so of course they made their chaotic evil dragon a queen.

Yes, Gygax and Kuntz are making a game, but it is a game whose co-creator explicitly wrote into the rules that feminine power—perhaps even female equality—is by nature evil. There is little room for any other interpretation.

I am female and this is one of the most retarded things I have ever read! Gygax didn't make the leader of chaotic dragons evil -Mythology several thousands of years old did! Gygax did not make up Tiamat, she (and yes SHE was female) is from Babylonian mythology, WAS the embodiment of CHAOS, attacked heaven, and took the form of a dragon. Good lord just read Wikipedia or crack open a book instead of spouting garbage intending to cause people to start shouting about wokeness.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
I can't believe this got this many posts. Why does ANYBODY care about what somebody else did in the PAST? Grow up. As for making the game more inclusive. Whatever.
Mod Note:

I’ll be gentle since you seem to be new around here and several posters have already discussed this with you.

1) ENWorld has had many discussions like this, with some pretty impressively researched & scholarly approaches to documenting the “who, what, why and when” of the topic. You may or may not find them educational.

2) No one is forcing you to include anyone you don’t want to include. Asserting that the contrary is so is counterfactual, and will generally only win you “internet points” from those who, frankly, are often treading on thin ice here.

3) the purpose of discussions like these (and the book in question) is to examine what was problematic and to avoid making similar mistakes going forward.

4) you might want to review ENWorld’s policies before posting again, so you don’t run afoul of the rules on things like being anti-inclusion. As the saying goes, “every dog gets one free bite”. You’ve had yours; the next one will have different consequences beyond a mere note.
 
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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
I am female and this is one of the most retarded things I have ever read! Gygax didn't make the leader of chaotic dragons evil -Mythology several thousands of years old did! Gygax did not make up Tiamat, she (and yes SHE was female) is from Babylonian mythology, WAS the embodiment of CHAOS, attacked heaven, and took the form of a dragon. Good lord just read Wikipedia or crack open a book instead of spouting garbage intending to cause people to start shouting about wokeness.
Mod Note:

It’s 2024, and the use of “retarded” as a pejorative has been frowned upon for quite some time. Don’t do so again, please.
 

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing (He/They)
I can't believe this got this many posts. Why does ANYBODY care about what somebody else did in the PAST? Grow up. As for making the game more inclusive. Whatever.

I already answered your question earlier, but I think a better answer can already be found in the original post of the whole thread:

Ben Riggs said:
We honor the old books, but when they tell a reader they are a lesser human being, we should acknowledge that is not the D&D of 2024...

...when we see something bigoted in old D&D, we talk about it. It lets the new, broad, and deep tribe of D&D know that we do not want bigotry in D&D today. Talking about it welcomes the entire human family into the hobby. To do anything less is to damn D&D to darkness. It hobbles its growth, gates its community, denies the world the joy of the game, and denies its creators their due. D&D’s creators were visionary game designers. They were also people, and people are kinda ****** up. So a necessary step in making D&D the sort of cultural pillar that it deserves to be is to name its bigotries and prejudices when you see them. Failure to do so hurts the game by shrinking our community and therefore shrinking the legacy of its creators.
 
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MNblockhead

A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
This thread has entered into a Groundhog Day loop of repeated arguments or conversations.

I do find it strange that this is the book that Gary defenders chose as their hill to die on. A 570+ plus book celebrating his creations with a few sentences mentioning some of the problematic comment.

I suppose this book has a higher profile than the various history books that have been published or the When They Were Wizards podcast. Gary, like most people, had many character flaws. And these flaws have been gone into in much greater length in other works than this one.
 
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Chaosmancer

Legend
I am female and this is one of the most retarded things I have ever read! Gygax didn't make the leader of chaotic dragons evil -Mythology several thousands of years old did! Gygax did not make up Tiamat, she (and yes SHE was female) is from Babylonian mythology, WAS the embodiment of CHAOS, attacked heaven, and took the form of a dragon. Good lord just read Wikipedia or crack open a book instead of spouting garbage intending to cause people to start shouting about wokeness.

While you are correct that Tiamat was a Babylonian deity, as has been discussed many times in this thread, the larger issue is the follow up. In fact, it is the image directly above the quote you chose to pull out. The crack about women's lib has heavy vibes of "suck it feminists" from Gary. And, again, as has been discussed many times in this thread, if this was it, if this was the only thing, then we could cast doubt on Gygax's opinions.

However, we also have Gygax in an international magazine saying himself that he is a sexist and that he wants women to stay away from his games.

We also have the quotes from this very forum back in 2005 when Gygax said he was a biological determinist and did not believe women capable of enjoying Role-Playing Games like men do.

We also have the text from the AD&D DMG that states that there is no way to tell a married woman from a prostitute, and that offending her will likely result in accusations of rape.

And many, many more. So, you are correct. Tiamat was a Babylonian goddes, and wikipedia does tell us that she warred with the Gods... after they killed her husband/mate Apsu who sought to destroy them for making too much of ruckus in Heaven. So, a little less Chaotic Evil chose to start causing problems that the Tiamat of DnD. But, she did fight Heaven, fair enough. However... does one piece of weak evidence mean that Gygax was not sexist, especially when another piece of evidence is Gygax proudly declaring himself sexist? I don't think it does.
 

Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
Also a big and important thing for the context of literally any piece of writing:

The author is always the one who made a character what they are. It doesn't matter what "Inspiration" they have or if the name has "Historical Significance", the character is what the author wants them to be. The problems are what the author wants them to be. The setting, the situation, everything is as the author wants it to be.

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This is not a pipe. It is paint on canvas. It is lighter colored paint and darker colored paint. It is brown and cream and black and shades of each. But it is not a pipe.

Heck. It's not even a painting, right there. It's information translated by your monitor into light.

“You painted a naked woman because you enjoyed looking at her, put a mirror in her hand and you called the painting “Vanity,” thus morally condemning the woman whose nakedness you had depicted for you own pleasure.”
― John Berger, Ways of Seeing

This is the Treachery of Images. And it applies to writing, too.

There is no Tiamat from ancient Babylonian myth within D&D. There is only Tiamat, Queen of the Chromatic Dragons. Constructed, whole cloth, by Gary Gygax and given a 'Cool Name' he read.

Which is also why Bahamut is the Platinum Dragon, instead of a Carp swimming with Kutuya the Ox standing on his back, an angel on the ox's back, and the world on the angel's shoulders.

The name sounded cool. Everything else is made up.
 

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