D&D General On Early D&D and Problematic Faves: How to Grapple with the Sins of the Past

Hussar

Legend
And again, it comes back to separating artist from art. If you acknowledge that an creator’s biases can impact their views, then it doesn’t really matter if they are writing fiction or non fiction. Those biases are going to have impact.

What surprises me to be honest is the lengths people will go to deny that. And that gets back to author intent. “Oh, well, so and so author didn’t really mean that when she wrote that” is a very weak argument when you can point to the exact words in the text that mean exactly that.
 

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The problem is that its rare that certain sorts of personal views don't color someone's fiction writing at some point or another. Ask one-time fans of Marion Zimmer-Bradley how they now view in retrospect some scenes and subplots in some books in light the revelation that she'd been an enabler for her husband's sexual offenses.

Certainly it can. It doesn't always pollute a work so thoroughly though that the art isn't still there. But like I said, I have lines too. For those I wouldn't look so much to an artists personal life, as what people say about the work, what reviews tell me, etc. And I might start reading something and stop if for whatever reason the content is too much for me. I am not a fan of Marion Zimmer-Bradley (tried reading one of those books and could not get past the first few pages). But looking her up, if that kind of content made it into the book itself, the content on its own would probably be enough to turn me off to reading further. If it is more subtle, and I haven't read her works so I don't know, and more a matter of shedding light that changes how you view the work, sure that is a potential thing that can happen. I don't see the Cosby Show episode about the special sauce with the same eyes I did as a child. I think when artists truly cross lines, people have to decide for themselves how they are going to engage with the art. But the line you describe here is a massive one. The examples we were going over before were much more about shady business practices and vices. I mentioned Mailer who I think was an atrocious person. His bad behavior informed his work, but I can still enjoy it.

Again I am not against someone stopping reading something because they encounter a section that bothers them. I just don't use a writers personal life as a measure for whether I like the art or not. I can still appreciate Rosemary's Baby but think Roman Polanski is a horrible human being. That doesn't change that Rosemary's Baby is a great piece of cinema.

On content itself, especially disturbing things, definitely have lines in the work. That is very personal though. I remember the first time I saw a series based on Return of Condor Heroes, which is a great work of wuxia fiction, I was enjoying it up until I got to the scene where a main character is raped. That bothered me a lot, especially because I was unfamiliar with the story at the time, so I didn't know it was going to happen, and the character was central to the story. I found it pretty shocking and had to take a break from it. After a few days away from it, I went back and finished the series, then I eventually read the books. I am very glad I did. None of this pertains to the author's personal, but I can definitely sympathize with someone trying to figure out whether they want to proceed with content they find disturbing in some way. I am just using this as an example to say I think there is a difference between not paying attention to an author's personal life, and trying to decide what sort of content you want to avoid or not (and that it isn't always easy to formulate a judgement).
 

And again, it comes back to separating artist from art. If you acknowledge that an creator’s biases can impact their views, then it doesn’t really matter if they are writing fiction or non fiction. Those biases are going to have impact.

What surprises me to be honest is the lengths people will go to deny that. And that gets back to author intent. “Oh, well, so and so author didn’t really mean that when she wrote that” is a very weak argument when you can point to the exact words in the text that mean exactly that.

I don't think anyone is saying peoples biases won't affect their work.
 

MGibster

Legend
And again, it comes back to separating artist from art. If you acknowledge that an creator’s biases can impact their views, then it doesn’t really matter if they are writing fiction or non fiction. Those biases are going to have impact.
Heck, our own biases (or experiences if we'd like to call it that) influence how we interpret a work. I know more than one obsessive Joss Whedon fan who now think he's a hack because they found out he's a raging jerk. In my Gender and Science Fiction course, there was a short story we read where I interpreted it as being about miscegenation and another student thought it was about sexism.

What surprises me to be honest is the lengths people will go to deny that. And that gets back to author intent. “Oh, well, so and so author didn’t really mean that when she wrote that” is a very weak argument when you can point to the exact words in the text that mean exactly that.
If I were to have made the "he didn't really mean that" argument to one of my professors they would have asked for evidence to back my claim up. Gygax said it, and if anyone wants to argue he didn't really mean it then they need to provide some sort of evidence showing he didn't really mean it.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
Supporter
Heck, our own biases (or experiences if we'd like to call it that) influence how we interpret a work. I know more than one obsessive Joss Whedon fan who now think he's a hack because they found out he's a raging jerk. In my Gender and Science Fiction course, there was a short story we read where I interpreted it as being about miscegenation and another student thought it was about sexism.

I don't think he's a hack. I still love Buffy.

But yeah, it does put the Charisma Carpenter arc in Angel in a lot more context, from "Huh, this is weird," to, "Um, this is really not cool."
 


Thomas Shey

Legend
And again, it comes back to separating artist from art. If you acknowledge that an creator’s biases can impact their views, then it doesn’t really matter if they are writing fiction or non fiction. Those biases are going to have impact.

In the case of nonfiction, it may be that their biases have no meaningful connection with the topic they're writing about. A person who has certain sorts of social bias isn't likely to have that show up in a book on gemology.

Fiction or social science are a different story.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
This true.

AND this is the core of the issue. Who you think is a JERK? And who I think is a JERK? Are five different things. I do find it interesting is how much passion goes into labeling an artist a jerk; and various methods of condemning people who don't find the author a jerk.

Well, generally I tend to be most judgemental of people who are racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, or otherwise hateful in their beliefs or actions. I also generally do not approve of murders, domestic abusers, or rapists.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
There is this and also: when I hear about an interesting new book, my first question is not 'but is the author Mr. Rogers?'. I haven't noticed any correlation between being a nice person and writing good fiction. I want to read good fiction, I want to listen to good music. It isn't especially important to me how the person who made it conducts their personal life

I don't go looking for that information either. But when I hear it... why should I dismiss it as unimportant?

My cousin is a Cincinnati Bengals fan, and so I am very aware that a good number of them are domestic abusers. This might be true of a lot of football players, I only know the Bengals because he is a fan and he discusses it. Why would I want to buy the art of a man who was caught on-camera beating his wife unconscious? I know who that man is from other contexts, not because my first instinct upon seeing the work of art was to look into their personal history.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
For me this is just something I never understood when it comes to things like novels, movies and music. If this matters to you, fair, I am not criticizing you for doing this. But it feels like a lot of peopel when they experience art now, almost do it like how some peopel buy products at whole foods or something. To me the connection between personal character and good writing is so not there (maybe even in the direction of bad people making more interesting art), and the percentage of really good writing so rare, I just can't use the personal life of the author as a measure for whether I would read something (obviously though there may be lines in certain cases or around key issues where it just colors the experience too much for me).

I suppose this is another point. I don't find really good writing that rare. I have encountered almost mountains of very good material that I deeply enjoy. So, when I found out that a particular author has done something heinous... it is not something I need to grapple with to cut out their work if I have not already purchased it.
 

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