OSR What's the best introductory BX/OSR scenario for new players and DMs?

Orius · Apr 10, 2024

I'll second B1. It's designed to be a tutorial for both players AND DMs. The dungeon was designed to show players the typical sorts of things they'd encounter at the time. More importantly, it's a tutorial for the DM. There's not just DMing advice, but the DM is given a list of encounters, empty rooms to stock, and instructions on how to do so. And on top of that, because there's a random element to how the rooms get stocked, and there are more encounters than rooms to stock, every time the module gets used it's going to be different, so there's added reply value. Plus it'll stymie the players that expect a "walkthrough".

There is some criticism over the adventure in that the DM does have to stock the whole thing or the map design, but a modern take on B1 would be a good thing.

Gus L · Apr 11, 2024

Orius said:
I'll second B1. It's designed to be a tutorial for both players AND DMs. The dungeon was designed to show players the typical sorts of things they'd encounter at the time. More importantly, it's a tutorial for the DM. There's not just DMing advice, but the DM is given a list of encounters, empty rooms to stock, and instructions on how to do so. And on top of that, because there's a random element to how the rooms get stocked, and there are more encounters than rooms to stock, every time the module gets used it's going to be different, so there's added reply value. Plus it'll stymie the players that expect a "walkthrough".

There is some criticism over the adventure in that the DM does have to stock the whole thing or the map design, but a modern take on B1 would be a good thing.

Personally, I think B1 was is rather mediocre at best having both run it as my first foray into refereeing back in 1982 and having read and run it more recently (2013 or so).

It's stocking tables and rules lead to a scenario that is poor in everything a dungeon should be: interactivity, coherence, faction intrigue and even treasure. If one wants to remain limited to B series adventures B2 is far superior. Though B2 also suffers from its own problems, especially for new players and even more from players coming from 5E or other more contemporary play styles. In general the B series, despite some solid entries like B2 and B4 is not ideal for teaching in the current Post-OSR environment, when referees and players often have radically different expectations then we did in the 1980's.

This entire discussion has been interesting to follow in as far as it seems like some elements of less involved Post-OSR space are enamored with 1980's design rather then that of the OSR (2006-2020). It's surprising. Not sure if it's a pure nostalgic revivalism, OSR nostalgia, or just new people who are effectively recreating the discussions and attitudes of 2007 Dragonsfoot and about to walk the entire path of the last 20 years of classic/OSR design over again?

SpellObjectEnthusiast · Apr 11, 2024

Gus L said:
It's surprising. Not sure if it's a pure nostalgic revivalism, OSR nostalgia, or just new people who are effectively recreating the discussions and attitudes of 2007 Dragonsfoot and about to walk the entire path of the last 20 years of classic/OSR design over again?

I think its something to that effect. Since so much of OSR theory/discussion is either scattered in blogs or lost to G+, a lot of new players are getting into the games and going through the same cycles when the games grate against their expectations.

"Solved" problems aren't solved if no one can see the solutions.

Whizbang Dustyboots · Apr 11, 2024

SpellObjectEnthusiast said:
I think its something to that effect. Since so much of OSR theory/discussion is either scattered in blogs or lost to G+, a lot of new players are getting into the games and going through the same cycles when the games grate against their expectations.

"Solved" problems aren't solved if no one can see the solutions.

The 5E era has brought in the greatest number of players to the hobby ever, so it makes sense that they would be starting the lifecycle over again. The OSR-friendly folks among the new players might not even know of the OSR, much less know that they have to go scour Blogger (which I bet would get baffled looks from plenty of younger players) or know that they need to pick up Knock! (at $60 bucks a pop, with shipping) to see all the stuff that vanished with G+.

And, to be frank, Dragonsfoot was often a pretty hostile climate to newcomers just discovering all of this stuff. Even if newer players knew that there was an old fashioned message board full of good info, there's also plenty of posts memorialized there suggesting that they were stupid for liking WotC-era D&D, which isn't exactly rolling out the red carpet to newbies.

SpellObjectEnthusiast · Apr 11, 2024

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
The 5E era has brought in the greatest number of players to the hobby ever, so it makes sense that they would be starting the lifecycle over again. The OSR-friendly folks among the new players might not even know of the OSR, much less know that they have to go scour Blogger (which I bet would get baffled looks from plenty of younger players) or know that they need to pick up Knock! (at $60 bucks a pop, with shipping) to see all the stuff that vanished with G+.

And, to be frank, Dragonsfoot was often a pretty hostile climate to newcomers just discovering all of this stuff. Even if newer players knew that there was an old fashioned message board full of good info, there's also plenty of posts memorialized there suggesting that they were stupid for liking WotC-era D&D, which isn't exactly rolling out the red carpet to newbies.

The main thing which is accessible to newcomers on the OSR theory side of things are the trio of Primers - Principia Apochrypha, Matt Finch's Primer, and Chris Gonnermann's Primer. Again - still reasonably obscure to find those.

But the Primers are still not really enough context on their own to fully convey the stuff that isn't included in out-of-the-box OSE or Shadowdark or ____-Hack to understand the how's and why's - particularly when the texts of the games contradict the theory in the Primers.

Whizbang Dustyboots · Apr 11, 2024

SpellObjectEnthusiast said:
The main thing which is accessible to newcomers on the OSR theory side of things are the trio of Primers - Principia Apochrypha, Matt Finch's Primer, and Chris Gonnermann's Primer. Again - still reasonably obscure to find those.

But the Primers are still not really enough context on their own to fully convey the stuff that isn't included in out-of-the-box OSE or Shadowdark or ____-Hack to understand the how's and why's - particularly when the texts of the games contradict the theory in the Primers.

I think the fact that so much of this is wrapped up in theory discussions doesn't help, either.

"Yes, you are frustrated with some of the limitations you're now encountering later in your 5E career. How do you feel about weeks of homework reading theorycrafting, typically dressed up in pseudo-academic writing and language?"

If anything, I think Ben Milton's Questing Beast videos are probably a better entry point for most people. He is extremely chill and conveys what's fun about this style of play without breaking out the wrongbadfun or gatekeeping that so many gamers (from every scene) often do. And YouTube is where younger/newer gamers already are, along with reddit. (r/osr is probably too intense for most newcomers to be a good on-ramp, IMO.)

timbannock · Apr 11, 2024

I don't know how relevant this is, but...

I suspect in as early as 5-10 years the numbers of folks recommending B1 and B2 and stuff from that era is going to fall off of a cliff. Mostly for bad reasons, but also for good reasons: I think releases like Tomb of the Serpent Kings (and a lot of others besides) do advance both game theory and game playability.

Mildly related, I think a great example of "looking into the past" from a modern lens was Thursdays in Thracia, a blog series that really broke down playing an old-school adventure (Caverns of Thracia) with a modern mindset using a modernized restatement of B/X, splitting the posts into both a recap of the session and a dive into the mechanics. Great read, and there's plenty more like that both in blogs and YouTube actual plays. I'd love to see more APs that have a quick insert of the DM (and players) explaining mechanical choices and decisions after play.

timbannock · Apr 11, 2024

To add: Look at Beyond the Borderlands and Planar Compass zines as really good examples of pushing forward while looking back.

Beyond is effectively a restatement of Keep on the Borderlands, but in a very video-gamey, highly stylized way that I think is both immediately accessible and also extremely opinionated.
Planar Compass finds ways to make some of the most divisive D&D rules and tropes of yesteryear accessible and much more game-friendly. Psionics, spelljamming, and planescaping (it's a word now!) all shoved into very short, highly readable, and immediately playable zines.

These are great routes for getting into RPGs in a cheaper, simpler, and more "targeted-to-your-interests, whatever those may be!" way.

GuardianLurker · Apr 11, 2024

Having just adapted and run B1 for my PF2e group, I'm not sure I'd recommend it for beginning GMs. While the room keys aren't bad, and the prompts to stock monsters and treasure aren't bad, overall B1 really shows that it was the 4th adventure ever published.

The map - from a modern, lessons-learned perspective - is ATROCIOUS. Incredibly weirdly shaped. and distributed, rooms. Defensive traps (?) in locations where they don't guard anything. Secret Doors to the most basic of rooms. Rooms that (given their space on the map) are important parts of the complex are completely undescribed. It looks like it was designed by a random-dungeon table.

B1 also suffers in that it was written before the invention of box text. And the fact that many of its scenarios are absolutist (to abuse a term). Oh, and rely on player stupidity to encounter. If you were to use it as written, it really needs a read-thru with highlighter and/or summary notes.

Really, one of the later B series would probably work better. Maybe B5?

SpellObjectEnthusiast · Apr 11, 2024

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
r/osr is probably too intense for most newcomers to be a good on-ramp, IMO.

r/osr is pretty actively hostile and honestly too intense for me as a non-newcomer.

OSR What's the best introductory BX/OSR scenario for new players and DMs?

Orius

Legend

Gus L

Explorer

SpellObjectEnthusiast

Adventurer

Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero

SpellObjectEnthusiast

Adventurer

Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero

timbannock

Hero

timbannock

Hero

GuardianLurker

Adventurer

SpellObjectEnthusiast

Adventurer

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