D&D General Don't Point a Loaded Beholder at a Player Character You're Not Willing to Disintegrate

Reynard said:

2. Put some spikes at the bottom of the pit and also have the vines start to let go as a character climbs. When it is their turn, give them a choice -- move laterally (therefore making no progress up) and be safe, or move up and potentially have the vines let go under their weight (1 or 1-2 in d6 chance, maybe). This gives them choices and underscores the danger.

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I like this option. I'll be using it for sure.

aco175 said:

Is the pit there already, or being dug in response to the PCs invading? If it is in response to the PCs, them I would telegraph somewhat with a large pile of dirt someplace and need to judge how quickly they can dig and how deep.

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The pit is already there. In the adventure there is an underground grove where the actual villain of the story resides.

NotAYakk said:

1. I wouldn't make the bottom of the pit be "so far you just die". Make it "ouch" far down. Say 60' deep.

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I was thinking about how far it should be. Per the adventure it's 80'.. Which I might shorten to 50'-60'. It's still deep enough that with some poor rolls it could mean death.

NotAYakk said:

2. Stick something at the bottom of the pit you do not want to fight. Like a T-Rex. CR that is high enough that the encounter at the top is smaller than the encounter at the bottom of the pit. Scale this for the level of the party. The creature is shrouded in gloom, has cover (there are tunnels off of the pit), and is big enough that it can snap at creatures who are "half way down".

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In the adventure the pit leads to a underground grove, with a cursed magical tree and an evil druid. He has little treefolk as minions, but I was thinking of replacing them with fungus people? Or maybe even spore infested goblin zombies? But having a threat waiting for anyone that falls is a good idea.. I'm going to have to store the T-Rex pit away for a future adventure.. I like that idea

Meech17 said:

In the adventure the pit leads to a underground grove, with a cursed magical tree and an evil druid. He has little treefolk as minions, but I was thinking of replacing them with fungus people? Or maybe even spore infested goblin zombies? But having a threat waiting for anyone that falls is a good idea.. I'm going to have to store the T-Rex pit away for a future adventure.. I like that idea

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Fugus-Rex.

Sorry.

Fungasaurus-Rex.

Meech17 said:

Here's what I'm especially worried about.. What if someone almost dies? So imagine the Paladin get's tossed down the hole, but he's able to catch onto some of the vines and save himself. What are some ways I can ratchet up the tension so that the turn or two he has to spend climbing back up doesn't feel boring or wasted?

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you can have the goblins hack away on the vines, so he tumbles down

Brings in some tension, helps the rest of the party in that there are less attackers, and the other players have to think about going for those goblins or help the Paladin in some other way to increase his odds

Meech17 said:

Of course, PC death is going to be on the table. I'm not super concerned about that. There's going to be vines and stuff for them to catch on to.. It might happen.. If it does.. What are some ways that I can make sure it's as dramatic as possible? If someone dies, I want to make sure it was worth it.

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Save it for just after a big hit from whoever is tossed down the well. Big damage, a crit, something. This way it makes sense, tit for tat, and give the player a look cool moment just before being tossed.

Meech17 said:

Here's what I'm especially worried about.. What if someone almost dies? So imagine the Paladin get's tossed down the hole, but he's able to catch onto some of the vines and save himself. What are some ways I can ratchet up the tension so that the turn or two he has to spend climbing back up doesn't feel boring or wasted?

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Don’t have vines. Make the hole deep enough that no one can climb out before the fight’s done.

Meech17 said:

What are some ways I can project to my players "Hey.. There's a hole here.. And I WILL throw you down it if you let me!" without having to throw them down the hole? I guess what I'm getting at is, how can I make my players know I'm serious, so that if they do end up dying, it feels reasonable?

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Have the big bad throw someone else down the well first. Doesn’t matter who. The PCs’ ally, an ally of the big bad, some random goon.

Meech17 said:

Also, any tips or tricks from anyone who's done this before are always helpful. Or stories from times where you've done something similar.

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Don’t half measure the deadly. Adding vines and a chance to climb out easily is a half measure. Whatever the fall damage is, no saves. If they live, they live.

Meech17 said:

What are some ways I can project to my players "Hey.. There's a hole here.. And I WILL throw you down it if you let me!" without having to throw them down the hole? I guess what I'm getting at is, how can I make my players know I'm serious, so that if they do end up dying, it feels reasonable?

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If straight-up telling them this, directly and honestly, does not do the trick, there's really only one other option, and it doesn't have a much better success rate than kicking a PC into the hole.

And that is, kicking an NPC into the hole. It's up to you whether a random mook would count, or whether it needs to be someone the PCs really care about, but either way, you have to actually show someone genuinely biting the dust if you want people to believe that you'll actually have someone bite the dust.

If people genuinely won't believe you're serious when you tell them point blank, then the only other way to make it work is to show it. And, as stated, that is necessarily a risky thing that may backfire just as much as if you'd actually killed an NPC.

This will never not be a problem if you cannot simply level with your players and have them believe you. That's one of the reasons why I never, ever lie to my players. I have been cagey, I have given them only what details they could actually see and been vague about the true nature of things. But I never actually tell them any lies--and they know this. They know that if I say something, it's because I mean it. As a result, all I have to do is tell them that something is lethally dangerous and they immediately respond appropriately, because they know I wouldn't say that unless it was actually a danger to them.

This, among other reasons, is why I so thoroughly favor the no-fudging, no-rewriting, no-railroad, etc. approach to running games. The benefits are irreplaceable, and there's very, very little you can do with deception that you cannot also do without it.

aco175 said:

One giant claw attack on the summoned eagle and I told the player it takes 4d10+6 damage. The whole table suddenly stopped for a second and changed plans as I described the eagle being squeezed like a balloon until it popped and was summoned no longer.

The point is to telegraph the bad to the players. Maybe have a spell knock a goblin off or you may have a NPC with the party that can be put into the pit. They could be holding onto a vine and undead claws reach up from the darkness to grab them. Now, the players know they do not want to be in that situation. The fear of the unknown creeps in.

Another thing I tend to grant to PCs is a save or check to avoid total falling. Someone gets pushed or thrown over the side and they can try a DEX save to grab onto something. If it is a rough pit with vines and junk, then a DC12 is fine as the base. This allows them to grab something and be delayed only a round or two. If they make a DC10, then they grab something further down and are delayed 2-3 rounds- a DC15 might be that they grab the edge and can climb out the next round.

I use a DEX save over Athletics or Acrobatics since it is more a reaction to something happening to them and not a choice to use a skill. The skills are used to climb out without falling further into the pit.

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Re: the giant crab claw damage- I love this, and I try to do it myself when possible... it's really hard in D&D for players to be able to tell, just by description or a mini/token on the board. On VTTs it's somewhat easier because settings can be such that damage and to-hit are rolled simultaneously, so they can see on a miss "holy crap that does HOW MUCH damage?"

Summoned allies, or three-way fights, however you CAN do it, telegraphing serious threats is a great way to get your players' attention.. and it's just fair- their characters would have some idea that that giant crab claw could cut them in two. I kind of wish that there was some mechanic or rule for this.

Regarding catching yourself when being tossed off a cliff, I've done similar... I think it's most useful, though, if it were a stated rule, whether house-rule or official. That was enemies have it, players have it, expectations are set. I think it should require a reaction- that way players know if there's a cliff/pit in play, they know they should be conservative with said reactions.

Another reason to use saves over skills is because it's more difficult to pump up saves to ridiculous levels- Level Up A5E transferred a lot of things like grapples, shoves, etc. to Saves instead of contested skill checks for that reason.

P.S. I've run ~8 beholders against level ~8-9 parties in 5e. 6 of those fights were very easy for the players ... 2 of them resulted in character deaths via disintegration. It was rare that there was a middle-ground fight where they took a beating but no one died. It was feast or famine :'D

The best way to convince players you are willing to kill PCs is to kill a PC. The trick is to do it early on, before the players have become too attached to their characters, and make it feel deserved, because that character did something dumb.

Sunless Citadel, as a low level adventure, is an ideal opportunity to kick a foolish PC into the pit of doom.

overgeeked said:

Don’t half measure the deadly. Adding vines and a chance to climb out easily is a half measure. Whatever the fall damage is, no saves. If they live, they live.

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Honestly, this (and the rest of the post, but this part specifically) comes across as, "Do something completely different from what you actually want to do."

The OP clearly wants the threat of death to be unlikely but real. Advising them to make it likely and real is not useful advice in this context.

Paul Farquhar said:

The trick is to do it early on, before the players have become too attached to their characters, and make it feel deserved, because that character did something dumb.

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You have already erred by assuming that the player is not attached to the character before the dice hit the table. That assumption is not at all reliable--especially in modern play.

EzekielRaiden said:

You have already erred by assuming that the player is not attached to the character before the dice hit the table. That assumption is not at all reliable--especially in modern play.

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Then if they go off in a huff I am well rid of a problem player.

The point is to only play with people who are on the same wavelength as you. That way much aggro is avoided.