D&D General Don't Point a Loaded Beholder at a Player Character You're Not Willing to Disintegrate

I originally was going to title this with an expression about firearms, but decided to make it more on-brand. I want to ask a question, and ask for some advice regarding how to handle purposefully deadly encounters. Spoilers ahead for the 20 year old adventure The Sunless Citadel. If you're un-interested in the background of my campaign, skip ahead to the bolded portion.

So my players are into the Goblin controlled territory of the Citadel. They successfully captured Calcryx thanks to risking life and limb in order to protect Meepo so he'd be present to talk her down. I even introduced a new subplot to the story in which the reason Calcryx was captured in the first place is that Meepo had snuck her out of her cage and was attempting to flee with her. He loved her like a pet (I play with four people who work in the veterinary field, so it was an easy heart string to tug at.) and wanted to save her from her potential future as a Kobold War Machine. The players, opted to help Meepo sneak out of the citadel into the Underdark, where he assured them he knew a safe location to take them. I'm very proud of my players, because they knew they were giving up potential loot by not turning the dragon back over to the Kobold Queen Yusdrayl.

The next phase of the dungeon is going to be a showdown with the goblins and their Chief Durnn. The party was able to prevent any of the goblins from garnering reinforcements, but instead of pressing forward, they doubled back to allow Meepo to escape, and to take a long rest. This means the Goblins most certainly found their slain allies, and knew something was afoot. I'm not sure what to do with them next. Will they maybe launch a counter-assault on the Kobolds? Or perhaps bunker down and prepare for a second attack? I'm leaning towards the latter. I think it might be fun to try and draw the players into a pincer trap with some guerilla tactics. I'm happy to take any advice on this part but what this thread is really about is:

I want to built a pit, and make my players horrified that I'm going to kick them into it.
In Durnn's throne room there is a hole in the floor that leads down to the caves below. Many of my players (4/5 of them to be exact) are Baldur's Gate 3 players. I've started playing around with grid combat, and I want to kick things up a notch and add verticality, which is a really fun part of BG3 combat.

I'm planning on trying to build some sort of simple terrain. I was thinking maybe just kind of like a square donut. I've saved some cardboard boxes and I was just going to put them together in some rectangles, and put those together in a square to essentially make like a 3-5 square wide walk way around a 6x6 (Or maybe larger) hole, and then wrap the whole thing in gridded wrapping paper.

I think this could be a lot of fun. The party is going to have to deal with goblin archers shooting them from across the hole, they can kick some gobbos down the hole, etc..

The problem is, I don't want to point this threat at my players, and then not use it. If the Paladin and Durnn get nose to nose, and grapple, and the Paladin loses... Durnn is going to throw him down that hole. The crux of this issue, is that I want to present my players with a deadly situation, that is actually deadly. I don't want them to have a gun pointed at them, and then they walk away thinking "He was never going to pull the trigger". But rather I want them to walk away thinking "Holy cow.. I'm so thankful he didn't pull the trigger.. I was certain I was getting shot!"

Big Questions:

1. Of course, PC death is going to be on the table. I'm not super concerned about that. There's going to be vines and stuff for them to catch on to.. It might happen.. If it does.. What are some ways that I can make sure it's as dramatic as possible? If someone dies, I want to make sure it was worth it.
2. Here's what I'm especially worried about.. What if someone almost dies? So imagine the Paladin get's tossed down the hole, but he's able to catch onto some of the vines and save himself. What are some ways I can ratchet up the tension so that the turn or two he has to spend climbing back up doesn't feel boring or wasted?

What are some ways I can project to my players "Hey.. There's a hole here.. And I WILL throw you down it if you let me!" without having to throw them down the hole? I guess what I'm getting at is, how can I make my players know I'm serious, so that if they do end up dying, it feels reasonable?

Also, any tips or tricks from anyone who's done this before are always helpful. Or stories from times where you've done something similar.

Thanks!

In my group's last adventure, the PCs were in a fight with some manticores and an invisible stalker as they were trying to land their rowboat on the shore in a storm-churning ocean. As they were landing, a pair of giant crabs came over to also fight them. The druid had summoned a pair of giant eagles to help fight the manticores and the PCs were finishing with them when they landed so the eagles went to fight the crabs. Just as the barbarian reached the crabs to fight them, the crabs had their turn. One giant claw attack on the summoned eagle and I told the player it takes 4d10+6 damage. The whole table suddenly stopped for a second and changed plans as I described the eagle being squeezed like a balloon until it popped and was summoned no longer.

The point is to telegraph the bad to the players. Maybe have a spell knock a goblin off or you may have a NPC with the party that can be put into the pit. They could be holding onto a vine and undead claws reach up from the darkness to grab them. Now, the players know they do not want to be in that situation. The fear of the unknown creeps in.

Another thing I tend to grant to PCs is a save or check to avoid total falling. Someone gets pushed or thrown over the side and they can try a DEX save to grab onto something. If it is a rough pit with vines and junk, then a DC12 is fine as the base. This allows them to grab something and be delayed only a round or two. If they make a DC10, then they grab something further down and are delayed 2-3 rounds- a DC15 might be that they grab the edge and can climb out the next round.

I use a DEX save over Athletics or Acrobatics since it is more a reaction to something happening to them and not a choice to use a skill. The skills are used to climb out without falling further into the pit.

Meech17 said:

Here's what I'm especially worried about.. What if someone almost dies? So imagine the Paladin get's tossed down the hole, but he's able to catch onto some of the vines and save himself. What are some ways I can ratchet up the tension so that the turn or two he has to spend climbing back up doesn't feel boring or wasted?

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Have a goblin or whatever there to try to cut the vines? The other PCs have to try to stop it, the Paladin in the hole has to try to swing to a different vine to avoid possibly having their vine cut.

Meech17 said:

Or stories from times where you've done something similar.

Click to expand...

In Rime of the Frostmaiden our party was facing some Duergar at the entrance to their hideout. There was a pit just inside the doors and the PCs were backed up against it. When a couple duergar "enlarged", one PC fell, had to make a DEX save to grab the edge, etc. Duergar were trying to stomp on his hands, others were fighting, trying to pull them back so the PC could climb out.

During all this, another PC was knocked into the pit and fell 30 feet. The icy walls made escape difficult, so now the party was effectively down a member. Also, one duergar was grabbing anything and everything they could to throw at the PC trying to climb back out, to hinder their attempts.

I've found some leeway in the "rules/rulings" can make for a more interesting engagement, such as giving enlarged creatures advantage on shoves against smaller ones. Difficult terrain (e.g. icy) makes things more interested as well. For one, the decreased movement means creatures need to Dash to cover the same distance if it wasn't difficult.

Most importantly, to let the players know you're "serious", is to press the attack and don't let up! Make them feel the tension by being relentless. Wolfpack a single PC, hold them hostage for the encounter, make the others work to free them or feel the need to negotiate or surrender.

Anyway, once you have done something along those lines, the players know you'll do it again if they let you. Terrain is one of the most overlooked aspects of encounters IME,

Finally, the PCs are often invaders into the creatures' homes. Many people don't think about that. But the creatures should think about it, and be very defensive about it IMO.

Meech17 said:

Big Questions:

1. Of course, PC death is going to be on the table. I'm not super concerned about that. There's going to be vines and stuff for them to catch on to.. It might happen.. If it does.. What are some ways that I can make sure it's as dramatic as possible? If someone dies, I want to make sure it was worth it.
2. Here's what I'm especially worried about.. What if someone almost dies? So imagine the Paladin get's tossed down the hole, but he's able to catch onto some of the vines and save himself. What are some ways I can ratchet up the tension so that the turn or two he has to spend climbing back up doesn't feel boring or wasted?

What are some ways I can project to my players "Hey.. There's a hole here.. And I WILL throw you down it if you let me!" without having to throw them down the hole? I guess what I'm getting at is, how can I make my players know I'm serious, so that if they do end up dying, it feels reasonable?

Also, any tips or tricks from anyone who's done this before are always helpful. Or stories from times where you've done something similar.

Thanks!

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First of all, great write up. This sounds like a lot of fun.

On your questions:

1. Don't. A death would be dramatic in and of itself. You have set up a cool setpiece battle with the dangers easily seen by the players. They already know death is on the table and they will respond -- both tactically and emotionally. Enjoy it.

2. Put some spikes at the bottom of the pit and also have the vines start to let go as a character climbs. When it is their turn, give them a choice -- move laterally (therefore making no progress up) and be safe, or move up and potentially have the vines let go under their weight (1 or 1-2 in d6 chance, maybe). This gives them choices and underscores the danger.

Is the pit there already, or being dug in response to the PCs invading? If it is in response to the PCs, them I would telegraph somewhat with a large pile of dirt someplace and need to judge how quickly they can dig and how deep.

1. I wouldn't make the bottom of the pit be "so far you just die". Make it "ouch" far down. Say 60' deep.

2. Stick something at the bottom of the pit you do not want to fight. Like a T-Rex. CR that is high enough that the encounter at the top is smaller than the encounter at the bottom of the pit. Scale this for the level of the party. The creature is shrouded in gloom, has cover (there are tunnels off of the pit), and is big enough that it can snap at creatures who are "half way down".

3. When tumbling down the edge to the bottom of the 60' pit, you'll take 6d4 (15) bludgeoning and 6d4 (15) acid damage. If you are able to take reactions (ie, not KO'd or Stunned), you can make a Strength Save; reduce both kinds of damage by the half of the save result, and you catch yourself Strength Save value above the bottom of the pit by grabbing some vines. You can instead choose to make a Dex save to slide down the side safely; this reduces the Bludgeoning damage by the full value of your save, but you end up at the bottom of the pit, and you take full acid damage.

4. Whenever you take damage you must roll a constitution save against the value of the damage done or lose your grip.

5. Some of the vines are acidic. You can figure out which one via a Int(Nature) (DC 10) knowledge action, or an Int(Investigation) (DC 15) experiment action, or a Wis(Perception) DC 20 spot check.

6. Every 10' you climb there is a 50% chance you have to get over a patch of acidic vines to continue; DC 15 dex save or 4d6 acid damage, on success half. If you know which vines are acidic, the DC is 10 and you take 2d6 on failure and no damage on a successful save.

7. Goblins are likely to shoot arrows at you as you climb. See #4 - this can knock you loose.

8. The T-Rex below is 20' tall with a 10' leap and a 10' reach. 1 turn after you fall it will emerge to see you (spot check against your "passive" stealth). If it has to leap, it attacks at disadvantage. If attacked by your allies, it may hide behind cover instead of snapping at the PC (make a wisdom save against damage done; on success, ignores the damage, on failure hides this turn, then next turn runs out and tries to eat PC).


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Goals:

This could end with a "kill the monster at the bottom of the pit". Which is awesome.

This could end with "climb frantically as a monster bites at your feet and arrows shoot at you". Which is also kind of cool.

You could grab ahold of the acidic vines. You ask to figure out which are acidic and "waste" a turn. Then the T-Rex comes out and you are like @#$@#$@#$ and try to out run it. It either bites you (and chomp chomp maybe you are dead) or fails to (and you get a cool "run away as the monster bites at you" scene).

PCs above can help by attacking the TRex, or jumping down, or whatever. They can even throw goblins down, and those goblins can distract the TRex! Goblins consider the TRex to be "certain death".

There can be one part of the way down that is a hatch+steep slide that doesn't have acid damage and only does 1d4 bludgeoning (DC 10 dex save to avoid damage) that drops you in a pool. This is the preferred "kill someone" method, because they get to watch them run from the TRex. The acid vine pit is the viewing pit, with the acid vines there to discourage the TRex from trying to climb out. The slide does not have anything to grab onto however.

The 10' diameter slide landing pool is in the center of the 20' diameter pit. If you throw someone directly into it, you avoid the acid and falling damage is reduced to 3d4 (DC 10 dex save for half). This is a way to throw a goblin in (yeet style) that gives you a living goblin for the TRex to eat.

aco175 said:

Another thing I tend to grant to PCs is a save or check to avoid total falling. Someone gets pushed or thrown over the side and they can try a DEX save to grab onto something. If it is a rough pit with vines and junk, then a DC12 is fine as the base. This allows them to grab something and be delayed only a round or two. If they make a DC10, then they grab something further down and are delayed 2-3 rounds- a DC15 might be that they grab the edge and can climb out the next round.

I use a DEX save over Athletics or Acrobatics since it is more a reaction to something happening to them and not a choice to use a skill. The skills are used to climb out without falling further into the pit.

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This is a really good idea. I like tiers of success, and this is a good way to use it. I can make the risk of just plummeting to the bottom low, but still possible.. Maybe if they roll under a DC8.. And then scale it up giving them better and better positions the higher they roll.

ezo said:

Have a goblin or whatever there to try to cut the vines? The other PCs have to try to stop it, the Paladin in the hole has to try to swing to a different vine to avoid possibly having their vine cut.

Click to expand...

This is a good idea. Make the party choose between trying to save their team mate or continuing to press their attack. Hard choices make for the best moments IMO.

ezo said:

In Rime of the Frostmaiden our party was facing some Duergar at the entrance to their hideout. There was a pit just inside the doors and the PCs were backed up against it. When a couple duergar "enlarged", one PC fell, had to make a DEX save to grab the edge, etc. Duergar were trying to stomp on his hands, others were fighting, trying to pull them back so the PC could climb out.

During all this, another PC was knocked into the pit and fell 30 feet. The icy walls made escape difficult, so now the party was effectively down a member. Also, one duergar was grabbing anything and everything they could to throw at the PC trying to climb back out, to hinder their attempts.

I've found some leeway in the "rules/rulings" can make for a more interesting engagement, such as giving enlarged creatures advantage on shoves against smaller ones. Difficult terrain (e.g. icy) makes things more interested as well. For one, the decreased movement means creatures need to Dash to cover the same distance if it wasn't difficult.

Click to expand...

THIS IS ESPECIALLY EXCITING. I actually make a Goblin caster to include in the encounter and one of his spells was enlarge. I thought it would be fun to have Durnn grow to like 12 feet tall and try and smash the party with a barrel or something.

ezo said:

Finally, the PCs are often invaders into the creatures' homes. Many people don't think about that. But the creatures should think about it, and be very defensive about it IMO.

Click to expand...

I'm hoping I'm going to be able to draw them into a trap. Send two goblin scouts or something ahead to harass them, and then flee, allowing the players to get surrounded if they choose to give chase rather than follow carefully.

Meech17 said:

Big Questions:

1. Of course, PC death is going to be on the table. I'm not super concerned about that. There's going to be vines and stuff for them to catch on to.. It might happen.. If it does.. What are some ways that I can make sure it's as dramatic as possible? If someone dies, I want to make sure it was worth it.
2. Here's what I'm especially worried about.. What if someone almost dies? So imagine the Paladin get's tossed down the hole, but he's able to catch onto some of the vines and save himself. What are some ways I can ratchet up the tension so that the turn or two he has to spend climbing back up doesn't feel boring or wasted?

Click to expand...

Have some of the vines be animated or a creature that tries to pull climbing PCs off of the other vines.

Meech17 said:

What are some ways I can project to my players "Hey.. There's a hole here.. And I WILL throw you down it if you let me!" without having to throw them down the hole? I guess what I'm getting at is, how can I make my players know I'm serious, so that if they do end up dying, it feels reasonable?

Click to expand...

You could always have the goblin leader say something to the effect of, "I hope you don't fall in." and then give an evil smile. That ought to convey what you are asking. If they then get close and get kicked in, well they were warned.

NotAYakk said:

2. Stick something at the bottom of the pit you do not want to fight. Like a T-Rex. CR that is high enough that the encounter at the top is smaller than the encounter at the bottom of the pit. Scale this for the level of the party. The creature is shrouded in gloom, has cover (there are tunnels off of the pit), and is big enough that it can snap at creatures who are "half way down".

Click to expand...

A section of the floor next to the pit is unstable and the PC and a goblin fall into the pit, but take no damage. The Rancor in the pit gets to eat the goblin first as the PCs scramble to think of something.