Level Up (A5E) Question about warlock expanded spell lists

Hi all, in the adventurer’s guide Warlock patrons grant you an expanded spell list but the list is not dictated by the patron.
When new patrons are introduced from other sources the sometimes include a new expanded spell list, are they also only recommendations? If so are they available to any warlock to pick?

That's a question for your Narrator, but the RAW are: "When you choose an archetype, you also choose an expanded spell list your patron grants you access to. Choose one patron expanded spell list. These spells count as warlock spells for you."

This doesn't say that the list has to come from the ones in the AG (and even there they kept things really open on what lists might be appropriate for your Warlock/patron relation).

Another thing I noticed with spell lists:
There are some spell lists that have spells already on the warlock list as bonus spells. Sometimes a spell on this list is the most appropriate spell of that level (which effectively gives them fewer options for spells than other lists).

There's also an 11th level Invocation (Deep Patronage) that allows you to not only take a second expanded spell list but give you all spells on this list and they don't count against your spells known.

Most (or all?) other classes that get bonus spells from spell lists usually get them "always prepared" or something like that. Not so with the Warlock RAW.

So it seems that many narrators (me included) just allow warlock to know all spells on their chosen list.

I think that you're basically limited by the rules as written to a Warlock expanded spell list specified in the Adventurer's Guide, or if there's one listed in your Warlock archetype you could take that instead.

The limited number of spells known really restricts what spells a Warlock should select from - only the ones that you'll use often and that work well. As a result, you may not find a spare spell known to choose from your Warlock expanded spell list. Most of the expanded spell lists only have 1 or 2 must have spells that you'd select over a spell in the Warlock standard spell list.

I have a now 7th level Warlock that I've played from 1st level. The 4th level spell Freedom of Movement was the first spell that I've selected from the expanded spell list. I.e., the expanded spell list was irrelevant to me until 7th character level, which is poor character class in my opinion though it's consistent with the original D&D 5E Warlock design.

The 11th level Deep Patronage invocation is much better in this regard. You get all the spells on the expanded spell list as spells known, so you will cast them now and then, without sacrificing another spell slot.

From a DM perspective, I think it is fine to grant the Warlock player the expanded spells as spells known, but it does conflict with the spells known scarcity for the Warlock class. Not a big deal if it doesn't impinge on other characters. It's not that significant a power up, as the Warlock is still limited in spell slots (D&D) / spell points (A5E).

Tessarael said:

I think that you're basically limited by the rules as written to a Warlock expanded spell list specified in the Adventurer's Guide, or if there's one listed in your Warlock archetype you could take that instead.

Click to expand...

Unlike O5E (where the archetype only gives one specific spell list) A5E offers each archetype the choice between two lists and doesn't even force specific lists. "The patrons of the Diabolist [...] often grant spells of darkness and fire." or "Faeries instruct their Spellbound on capricious spells related to bewilderment and mobility. The spiteful fey of the Unseelie Court also adore spells of darkness, and fairies who guard natural landforms might specialize in a given element like fire." - which are almost all of the lists from the AG (except psionics or stars).

If a Warlock is interested in a specific theme and his patron should be able to grant these spells, why not just build your own list? After all... the patron is the warlock's "sugar daddy" and wants to bind him closer to him with the granted power.
When most of the spells the warlock uses are "normal" warlock spells... what keeps him from looking for a "better" patron?

Knowing more spells doesn't grant the warlock more spell points, so you can cast the same number of spells but from a slightly larger number of options.

@Tessarael Just out of curiosity... what archetype/spell list did you choose (and why) that you didn't really use? Or were all the spells you wanted already on the warlock list?

My character has the Vestigialist archetype for Warlock. I selected the Mobility expanded spell list specifically for Freedom of Movement and Greater Invisibility at 4th spell level. The Bewilderment, Fire, and Stars expanded spells list also have good choices for spells. However in each case, I think there's only a couple of spells that are worth choosing instead of spells from the Warlock's main spell list.

The spells that I have selected are:

Cantrips: Friends, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation

Level 1: Armor of Agathys (my go to for defense and when low on HP), Find Familiar (from Pact of the Chain), Hex

Level 2: Misty Step, Shatter, Shattering Barrage

Level 3: Dispel Magic, Hunger of Hadar

Level 4: Freedom of Movement, Sickening Radiance

I have yet to have a combat encounter where Hunger of Hadar was useful to cast, while I've used Dispel Magic 3 or 4 times now. So I swapped out Hunger of Hadar. And I have the rare spell Chains of Perdition, but I have yet to use that either.

Shatter is my default spell for area of effect damage. Eldritch Squall will also now be used that the character has reach 7th level Warlock. Fireball, particularly the rare variant, would still be better in many circumstances. I use Eldritch Ray or Eldritch Scythe for lower single target damage, or Shattering Barrage with Vestigialist's Curse and possibly Hex for higher single target damage.