Pathfinder 2E I think I am giving up on PF2ER

Staffan said:

I think this aspect of it is different depending on whether you played your way to mid/high level or whether you started there. If you start at level, say, 11, you're going to have a lot of options to deal with all at once. But if you "earned" your level 11, you will have started out with few options, learning how those work and what situations they work in, and then gradually integrating more and more tools in your kit.

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Staffan said:

But if you "earned" your level 11, you will have started out with few options, learning how those work and what situations they work in, and then gradually integrating more and more tools in your kit.

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Staffan said:

I think this aspect of it is different depending on whether you played your way to mid/high level or whether you started there. If you start at level, say, 11, you're going to have a lot of options to deal with all at once. But if you "earned" your level 11, you will have started out with few options, learning how those work and what situations they work in, and then gradually integrating more and more tools in your kit.

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Retreater said:

Except that you can take really bad options at low levels that would've worked better at high levels.
Case in point. I have a 1st level thaumaturge that I've been playing a few sessions. He's not so great. I took the mirror implement, which seemed promising - only it's not great for 1st level characters.
I don't have the action economy to use it effectively. Presenting two targets means that I'm taking lots of damage. My AC is capped as one of the lowest in the party.
I'm sure the build will come online around 5th level, but in the meantime, I'm not able to pull my own weight.

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Retreater said:

Except that you can take really bad options at low levels that would've worked better at high levels.
Case in point. I have a 1st level thaumaturge that I've been playing a few sessions. He's not so great. I took the mirror implement, which seemed promising - only it's not great for 1st level characters.
I don't have the action economy to use it effectively. Presenting two targets means that I'm taking lots of damage. My AC is capped as one of the lowest in the party.
I'm sure the build will come online around 5th level, but in the meantime, I'm not able to pull my own weight.

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Thomas Shey said:

You do know that PF2e allows you to swap out options when you level usually, right? So at worst you're carrying it for a level, and that's if you hit one of the few cases where your point is really true.

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Incenjucar said:

You have medium armor proficiency.

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Incenjucar said:

You can give and exploit vulnerabilities.

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Incenjucar said:

With the Mirror, you can basically flank at will,

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Retreater said:

Right. And I took heavy armor proficiency to try to help. But no shield, a low Dex because of a MAD class design, means my AC is even worse than the party's rogue.


Mhmm. And at low levels, there are very few monsters that have vulnerabilities. So you get like a +2 bonus to damage, provided you take the action to do so.


Sure. By taking an action, which provokes and Attack of Opportunity, which also opens you up as a second target that can get swarmed and attacked with your awful AC.

Not saying that it's a terrible class. It's just not awesome at low levels.

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Thomas Shey said:

Don't get me wrong, having run some 13A now, I think porting in something analogous to its hit point limits as a house rule into PF2e would be a fairly good idea. I just think half is still too high.

(Whether that would satisfy complaints is another question. For some people I think it would (obviously Staffan for example). Other people are carrying over expectations that spellcasters, especially arcanists, are the single target opponent defeaters, and that's really not their job in PF2e, and if they keep wanting that its just going to be a frustrating experience for them. That's not where their strengths lay in PF2e; its more like old school lower level arcanists who were best at imposing conditions on single targets and cooking up groups).

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Staffan said:

You're thinking of 4e. PF2e does allow that for spontaneous casters, but generally not for other character options. It does however have rules for retraining during downtime – swapping out a feat or a skill increase takes a week, and swapping out a class feature takes between a week for something like a spell or a month for something like a subclass.

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