Pathfinder 2E Never give up on PF2

MichaelSomething · Jul 7, 2024

Thomas Shey said:
So, go to the trouble of setting up a game, choosing a scenario, working out how many people will actually show, all to satisfy your demand to show it sufficiently to suit you?

I would not ask you to do something if I wasn't willing to do it myself.

MichaelSomething's 4E Comeback special

June 2 and June 9th. 6:15 pm EST to 10:15 pm EST (ish) Discord, Microphone, and Roll 20 required 4th Edition D&D Paging @EzekielRaiden Since we're all arguing about 4E, why don't we go play some? As you know, Enworlders are among the greatest players ever to throw the dice, so you should...

www.enworld.org

Arguments on the internet don't make TTRPGs, people running games and getting other people to play in them does.

The-Magic-Sword · Jul 7, 2024

I think I did suggest that I could run it for enworlders somewhat casually at some points, or otherwise suggested my west marches might be a fit, but I don't think anyone expressed much interest. I'd still be willing to try and pull together something a few sessions long over FoundryVTT if people want.

Thomas Shey · Jul 7, 2024

MichaelSomething said:
I would not ask you to do something if I wasn't willing to do it myself.

Irrelevant. I'm not required to try and put a game together for someone simply because they don't find argument compelling. The fact you're willing to do so does not change that at all.

We've explained the benefit the game has. If you won't accept that, why should we do more effort to find out if you'll be any different after a play experience?

Basically, your demand is fundamentally unreasonable, and your willingness to do it in no way changes that.

Kichwas · Tuesday at 6:46 PM

Kichwas said:
A more freeform point buy system is truer to life in a civilian context. But specialized roles are how you build teams designed to achieve mission success.

Translating that to a game - every player should have their space to shine, even as you build a team comp where working together is how they succeed. Specialization ensures this - even if it means some PCs don't have abilities their 'concept' would make sense for them to have. On some points, the game has to win over the story, and this is one of them.

There's a massive RuneQuest humble bundle going on right now. It's a system I last played in... 1984 I think.

Looking over info on the system as it stands in 2024 it seems like an anyone can do anything kind of game. A far opposite from Pathfinder and even D&D. That left me with very mixed feelings on the idea of grabbing it and relearning it.

As I said above "every player should have their space to shine". But if anyone can do anything, 'what is my purpose on the team?' When I'm sitting around the gaming table / discord - why do I get time to do anything as opposed to another player, or vice versa? Does the party care if I just go AFK? If no one has any specialization, no one has a role, and while in real life we can all socialize to our hearts content... in a GAME, what purpose does player XYZ server over player ABC that gives player XYZ 'screentime' to shine.

Like an ensemble cast TV show - why do we need 5 chief security officers for the Enterprise? Even when we've had "almost 2" one would get killed off (because she wanted to quit the show because the writers gave her nothing to do... Tasha and Worf were not the exact same role, I think - but they had too much crossover).

Imagine Seinfeld if all his friends were just copies of him. It just doesn't work. The Beatles if they all sang and played guitar and drums AT THE SAME TIME, and all 4 of them were married to Yoko...

Specialization might not be 'realistic' for 'random blokes down at the pub', but you need it to have a game that moves forward in a way were every player feels their 'game piece' has a purpose being on the board, and has something "to do" on their turn. And even in reality when we form teams to do stuff, people pick roles. One guy plays drums, one sings, etc...

Both D&D and Pathfinder understand this though. Somehow Gygax 'got it' right out of the gate in 1974 and so D&D always remained 'playable' even when you might have hated the system - whereas there were days when I found Hero or GURPS unplayable despite loving the systems. Days when they just felt aimless.

Thomas Shey · Tuesday at 9:45 PM

Kichwas said:
There's a massive RuneQuest humble bundle going on right now. It's a system I last played in... 1984 I think.

Looking over info on the system as it stands in 2024 it seems like an anyone can do anything kind of game. A far opposite from Pathfinder and even D&D. That left me with very mixed feelings on the idea of grabbing it and relearning it.

As I said above "every player should have their space to shine". But if anyone can do anything, 'what is my purpose on the team?' When I'm sitting around the gaming table / discord - why do I get time to do anything as opposed to another player, or vice versa? Does the party care if I just go AFK? If no one has any specialization, no one has a role, and while in real life we can all socialize to our hearts content... in a GAME, what purpose does player XYZ server over player ABC that gives player XYZ 'screentime' to shine.

First off, this misrepresents, in practice, what "everyone can do everything" means in such games. It at no point says "everyone can do everything equally well". A non-trivial part of what ends up producing your skill level in such games is training, which is constrained by money and available time. The rest is impacted by how often you actually use a given skill. So, in practice, you still end up having specialists in some things because its not cost effective and practical for everyone to be focusing on everything at once.

What they do not do is set artificial barriers in what a character can learn. The sorcerer may well be a competent swordsman--but he's also probably not good with a lance and a bow, and may not be a great horseman. The guy who picks the locks may be as good with his primary weapon as anyone on the team--but he's not as good a scout as the other guy who spent his training time on perception skills.

Even in other games without the structure of RQ and other BRP games, there is always some sort of resource that controls how capable everyone will be. There are usually some things that will call for a priority in almost everyone (melee capability and perception are standouts) but that doesn't mean they still don't throw specialists and non-specialists; they just don't demand that what precise abilities show up in a character are binned a certain way.

The idea that specialization has to be forced by the game system is nonsensical. Its not required and people will do it by themselves in systems that don't force it--they'll just do it their own way.

Doctor Futurity · Wednesday at 10:29 PM

Kichwas said:
There's a massive RuneQuest humble bundle going on right now. It's a system I last played in... 1984 I think.

Looking over info on the system as it stands in 2024 it seems like an anyone can do anything kind of game. A far opposite from Pathfinder and even D&D. That left me with very mixed feelings on the idea of grabbing it and relearning it.

As I said above "every player should have their space to shine". But if anyone can do anything, 'what is my purpose on the team?' When I'm sitting around the gaming table / discord - why do I get time to do anything as opposed to another player, or vice versa? Does the party care if I just go AFK? If no one has any specialization, no one has a role, and while in real life we can all socialize to our hearts content... in a GAME, what purpose does player XYZ server over player ABC that gives player XYZ 'screentime' to shine.

Like an ensemble cast TV show - why do we need 5 chief security officers for the Enterprise? Even when we've had "almost 2" one would get killed off (because she wanted to quit the show because the writers gave her nothing to do... Tasha and Worf were not the exact same role, I think - but they had too much crossover).

Imagine Seinfeld if all his friends were just copies of him. It just doesn't work. The Beatles if they all sang and played guitar and drums AT THE SAME TIME, and all 4 of them were married to Yoko...

Specialization might not be 'realistic' for 'random blokes down at the pub', but you need it to have a game that moves forward in a way were every player feels their 'game piece' has a purpose being on the board, and has something "to do" on their turn. And even in reality when we form teams to do stuff, people pick roles. One guy plays drums, one sings, etc...

Both D&D and Pathfinder understand this though. Somehow Gygax 'got it' right out of the gate in 1974 and so D&D always remained 'playable' even when you might have hated the system - whereas there were days when I found Hero or GURPS unplayable despite loving the systems. Days when they just felt aimless.

I can tell you haven't played the BRP family of games. As a long time vet of both D&D and BRP/Call of Cthulhu/Runequest (though admittedly not the current generation of RQ) I can safely say that the notion of niche protection is not a factor in how these games play, and if you try playing RQ or its relatives like D&D you will find that the experience is brutal and subpar.

EDIT: Also true for Hero and GURPS. These games are mot supposed to be played like D&D. The expectations are quite different. But if that is not your preferred style, that is totally cool.

Thomas Shey · Wednesday at 11:03 PM

Doctor Futurity said:
I can tell you haven't played the BRP family of games. As a long time vet of both D&D and BRP/Call of Cthulhu/Runequest (though admittedly not the current generation of RQ) I can safely say that the notion of niche protection is not a factor in how these games play, and if you try playing RQ or its relatives like D&D you will find that the experience is brutal and subpar.

EDIT: Also true for Hero and GURPS. These games are mot supposed to be played like D&D. The expectations are quite different. But if that is not your preferred style, that is totally cool.

While niche-protection as such isn't, as I noted, in practice some degree of specialization still tends to happen. That's inevitable just because of the fact that training is a finite resource.

But yes, it doesn't encourage avoiding other people's skills entirely; its just not usually worthwhile trying to impinge on them excessively (except as I noted, almost everyone wants melee combat skills and whatever versions of perception skills a given incarnation of BRP is using).

Staffan · Thursday at 2:10 AM

Thomas Shey said:
While niche-protection as such isn't, as I noted, in practice some degree of specialization still tends to happen. That's inevitable just because of the fact that training is a finite resource.

Yeah, specialization is generally not an issue in BRP-derived games. My main issues with most BRP-style games are not exactly issues inherent to the system, but they are common among them: excessive number of skills, and lack of support for binary abilities (and sometimes having to twist the system into pretzels to accommodate something along those lines, like how Martial Arts in Call sometimes lets you do more unarmed damage). For example, the version of Call of Cthulhu I've played most has about 50 skills (actually infinite skills, since each Art, Craft, Language, Pilot, and melee weapon is a separate skill, but I'm counting each of those categories as one). It might be "realistic" to have Conceal, Hide, and Sneak as separate skills, or Bargain, Fast Talk, and Persuade, but it means that if you want to be good in a field you probably need to pump points into three or so skills.

I think the Troubleshooters has a more player-friendly approach to skills. There's a list about 30 long, and that includes things that in other games are characteristics (Agility, Endurance, Strength, Charm, Willpower, Status). These also cover things that are other skills in many BRP games (e.g. Agility dealing with jumping and climbing, and Charm or Status managing many social skills). Default values are 15% across the board, and a starting PC has five good skills (65 to 75%) and six so-so (45%), so fairly broad competence. In addition, you have Abilities which are sort of like D&D/Pathfinder Feats in that you either have them or you don't. In many cases, they augment skills, such as Born Behind the Wheel which gives you various bonuses when driving. They can also provide narrative benefits, such as Good Reputation getting someone to introduce you and put in a good word for you and sometimes even getting out of trouble, or other mechanical benefits like Mean Left Hook increasing unarmed damage. Many have a mix of benefits, such as Police Badge which lets you (a) use Red Tape instead of Contacts to get in touch with cops, (b) get a bonus to social interactions in your jurisdiction if you show your badge, (c) get a different kind of bonus to Red Tape or Investigation checks, or (d) commandeer a civilian vehicle to chase after criminals.

Thomas Shey · Thursday at 3:41 PM

Staffan said:
Yeah, specialization is generally not an issue in BRP-derived games. My main issues with most BRP-style games are not exactly issues inherent to the system, but they are common among them: excessive number of skills, and lack of support for binary abilities (and sometimes having to twist the system into pretzels to accommodate something along those lines, like how Martial Arts in Call sometimes lets you do more unarmed damage). For example, the version of Call of Cthulhu I've played most has about 50 skills (actually infinite skills, since each Art, Craft, Language, Pilot, and melee weapon is a separate skill, but I'm counting each of those categories as one). It might be "realistic" to have Conceal, Hide, and Sneak as separate skills, or Bargain, Fast Talk, and Persuade, but it means that if you want to be good in a field you probably need to pump points into three or so skills.

Yeah, they don't usually have a good way o engage with things that would be feats or talents in other systems. One of the biggest reasons I've drifted away from them over time.

I'm agnostic on the skill number thing, because that's a lumping/splitting issue that's going to vary depending on what a given person wants. I do think if you're going to go with a large number there should be some cross-skill defaulting, though, and only a few BRP games go there.

Velderan · Thursday at 7:18 PM

Staffan said:
Yeah, specialization is generally not an issue in BRP-derived games. My main issues with most BRP-style games are not exactly issues inherent to the system, but they are common among them: excessive number of skills, and lack of support for binary abilities (and sometimes having to twist the system into pretzels to accommodate something along those lines, like how Martial Arts in Call sometimes lets you do more unarmed damage). For example, the version of Call of Cthulhu I've played most has about 50 skills (actually infinite skills, since each Art, Craft, Language, Pilot, and melee weapon is a separate skill, but I'm counting each of those categories as one). It might be "realistic" to have Conceal, Hide, and Sneak as separate skills, or Bargain, Fast Talk, and Persuade, but it means that if you want to be good in a field you probably need to pump points into three or so skills.

I think the Troubleshooters has a more player-friendly approach to skills. There's a list about 30 long, and that includes things that in other games are characteristics (Agility, Endurance, Strength, Charm, Willpower, Status). These also cover things that are other skills in many BRP games (e.g. Agility dealing with jumping and climbing, and Charm or Status managing many social skills). Default values are 15% across the board, and a starting PC has five good skills (65 to 75%) and six so-so (45%), so fairly broad competence. In addition, you have Abilities which are sort of like D&D/Pathfinder Feats in that you either have them or you don't. In many cases, they augment skills, such as Born Behind the Wheel which gives you various bonuses when driving. They can also provide narrative benefits, such as Good Reputation getting someone to introduce you and put in a good word for you and sometimes even getting out of trouble, or other mechanical benefits like Mean Left Hook increasing unarmed damage. Many have a mix of benefits, such as Police Badge which lets you (a) use Red Tape instead of Contacts to get in touch with cops, (b) get a bonus to social interactions in your jurisdiction if you show your badge, (c) get a different kind of bonus to Red Tape or Investigation checks, or (d) commandeer a civilian vehicle to chase after criminals.

Drifting off topic from PF2e, but yeah, that was the thing when learning to run CoC for the first time. There's so many skills and not wanting to stop the game each time to review the sometimes subtle differences between them was a little annoying. It's like the differences between the different senses related conditions in PF2e (undetected, invisible, unnoticed, etc.). I get them now, but as a new GM it took a few times seeing them in play to remember the differences and be able to quickly resolve the mechanic.

Pathfinder 2E Never give up on PF2

MichaelSomething

Legend

MichaelSomething's 4E Comeback special

The-Magic-Sword

Small Ball Archmage

Thomas Shey

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Kichwas

Half-breed, still living despite WotC racism

Thomas Shey

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Doctor Futurity

Hero

Thomas Shey

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Staffan

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Thomas Shey

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Velderan

Hero

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