Why do many people prefer roll-high to roll-under?

GMMichael · Mar 6, 2024

I picked Roll High for Modos RPG to follow a design theme: higher is better. Contest results, skill points, damage rolls, die type, hero points, power levels, casting difficulty* - the higher, the better. So, it's a consistency thing.

Roll Under would have the apparent advantage of simplicity: there's no need for an attribute bonus with Roll Under, because the attribute score IS the bonus. However, for Modos RPG anyway, contests (outcome quality rolls) are a comparison of the PC's result and the GM's result. Which, with Roll Under, would mean that the GM would need an "attribute" score to roll under as well. And that becomes a swingy mess with considerations like: did both sides roll under, what if only one side rolls under but still beats the opposing roll, and where does a bonus go if both sides have a roll and an attribute?

*Casting difficulty is a penalty to a caster's contest, which doesn't fit all definitions of "better." However, the effects of a power with higher casting difficulty are better than those with a lower casting difficulty. So, a power with a high casting difficulty is a better power . . . if you can cast it well.

Reynard · Tuesday at 8:29 PM

Dragonbane reminded me of why I like roll under -- it isn't so much the roll under mechanic itself, but rather that roll under is usually paired with a static difficulty based on the character's capabilities. In Dragonbane, for example, the difficulty to do a task is based on your skill, NOT external forces or some arbitrary DC. Of course, DB is a traditional RPG so the GM can impose modifiers or bane or whatever, but generally speaking the probability of success for a DB character is inherent in that character, not the world. This was true in TSR D&D too for saving throws (except roll over) and NW-Proficiency checks (roll under).

That appeals to me both as a player (my fate is in my hands) and as a GM (I don't have to think about DCs).

Crimson Longinus · Wednesday at 4:34 PM

Reynard said:
Dragonbane reminded me of why I like roll under -- it isn't so much the roll under mechanic itself, but rather that roll under is usually paired with a static difficulty based on the character's capabilities. In Dragonbane, for example, the difficulty to do a task is based on your skill, NOT external forces or some arbitrary DC. Of course, DB is a traditional RPG so the GM can impose modifiers or bane or whatever, but generally speaking the probability of success for a DB character is inherent in that character, not the world. This was true in TSR D&D too for saving throws (except roll over) and NW-Proficiency checks (roll under).

That appeals to me both as a player (my fate is in my hands) and as a GM (I don't have to think about DCs).

And to this is something I really hate. It makes no sense to me at all that every task is equally difficult.

billd91 · Wednesday at 4:45 PM

Crimson Longinus said:
And to this is something I really hate. It makes no sense to me at all that every task is equally difficult.

Well, in Dragonbane's case, it's not literally true that every task is equally difficult for a particular character rolling against a particular stat because the GM can impose a boon or bane (equivalent to advantage/disadvantage). Similarly with Call of Cthulhu, a Keeper could require a hard or extreme success rather than just a garden variety success.

But, I think, inherent to the issue is a certain philosophical view of the RPGs. You may lament being unable to apply a lot of system-defined/supported modifiers, but a lot of gamers are just going to see those as overly fiddly/nit-picky anyway when the randomness of the die roll is already making the task uncertain. For many of us, bane/boon in Dragonbane, or a hard/extreme success are going to be granular enough for an RPG's abstraction of difficulty.

Reynard · Wednesday at 4:57 PM

billd91 said:
Well, in Dragonbane's case, it's not literally true that every task is equally difficult for a particular character rolling against a particular stat because the GM can impose a boon or bane (equivalent to advantage/disadvantage). Similarly with Call of Cthulhu, a Keeper could require a hard or extreme success rather than just a garden variety success.

But, I think, inherent to the issue is a certain philosophical view of the RPGs. You may lament being unable to apply a lot of system-defined/supported modifiers, but a lot of gamers are just going to see those as overly fiddly/nit-picky anyway when the randomness of the die roll is already making the task uncertain. For many of us, bane/boon in Dragonbane, or a hard/extreme success are going to be granular enough for an RPG's abstraction of difficulty.

Right. How good am I at this thing? The, are there any special circumstances affecting that? Far easier and more efficient (for everyone) than finding and setting DCs along with the modifiers.

overgeeked · Wednesday at 5:24 PM

Reynard said:
Right. How good am I at this thing? The, are there any special circumstances affecting that? Far easier and more efficient (for everyone) than finding and setting DCs along with the modifiers.

Fair. But that’s also why you default to 8+ on the d20. Whoever tries it, usually the person with the highest bonuses, needs to roll an 8 or better on the die. That’s the TN. It’s best to not allow retries, or just do the math and now you know the TN.

Aldarc · Wednesday at 10:15 PM

Crimson Longinus said:
And to this is something I really hate. It makes no sense to me at all that every task is equally difficult.

Think of it less as "every task is equally difficult" and more like "I can usually handle up to certain difficulty or skill levels."

overgeeked · Wednesday at 10:43 PM

Aldarc said:
Think of it less as "every task is equally difficult" and more like "I can usually handle up to certain difficulty or skill levels."

And for real customization you can use modifiers, boons, banes, and automatic failure/success. A static TN does not mean all tasks are equally difficult.

Aldarc · Wednesday at 10:55 PM

overgeeked said:
And for real customization you can use modifiers, boons, banes, and automatic failure/success. A static TN does not mean all tasks are equally difficult.

I would also add that there are a number of systems with “roll over” that likewise use a pretty static number. Most skill/ability checks in Shadow of the Demon Lord, for example, involve simply beating a TN 10. As you mention, there may be boons or bands and you are adding your ability modifier, but it’s still about rolling higher than a static 10.

Why do many people prefer roll-high to roll-under?

GMMichael

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