D&D 2E [2e] Monster Mythology Update Project

Alzrius said:

As I recall, Dragon #223 explicitly says that the Lords of the Nine have their own cults, but also says that they aren't able to grant them spells. We do see a cleric of Asmodeus (a half-elf named Loviath) in A Paladin in Hell (affiliate link), but there's only limited information given about her.

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Yes, I think them grant spells is a post 2e idea.

dave2008 said:

Yes, I think them grant spells is a post 2e idea.

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Arch-devils and demon princes were considered lesser gods in 1e. They could definitely grant spells; there are specifically tons of examples of clerics of Lolth back then.

the Jester said:

Arch-devils and demon princes were considered lesser gods in 1e. They could definitely grant spells; there are specifically tons of examples of clerics of Lolth back then.

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At some point in 1e, but not originally. Also, since this is about 2e - did they keep that status in 2e? I feel some of the demon princes did, so I assume the devils did too?

AD&D like a lot of D&D editions was all over the place on the defific status of things like archdevils and demon lords.

2e Planescape Planes of Law says it is not known whether the Lords of the Nine are powers or not, but also that "The known Lords are called on by insignificant primes to the point where it gets to be a bother."

2e Monster Mythology lists a few specific demon lords as full patron deities to specific monster races. Demogorgon for Ixitxachitl, Kostchie for frost giants, Baphomet for Minotaurs, Juiblex for aboleths, Sessinek for Lizard Kings, Lolth for drow, and Yeenoghu for gnolls. It does not list any of the Lords of the Nine as specific patron deities.

In 1e Greyhawk the setting specified for the Horned Society that "Deviltry is the religion of the Society, and its leading Hierarch is purported to be an evil high priest of 18th level." In 2e they were overthrown by Iuz so they do not have a lot of detail. The 2e City of Greyhawk has a hierarch of the Horned Society in one of its adventure sheets as a 14th level priest with full spells, "Here, Vazirian the Hierarch is busying himself with some last-minute proofreading of a new Unholy Text of Asmodeus."

The late 2e Guide to Hell said that of the Lords of the Nine only Asmodeus was a full god, the others were special cases, beings who controlled a planar layer but were not powers and had no mortal followers. Asmodeus also predated the needs of belief for powers and is said to have no followers in this product.

In 1e the D series of modules there are plenty of clerics of Lolth, and she is clearly referred to as a demoness and not referred to as a god while Blibdoolpoolp and the Elder Elemental god are referred to as gods. It is not until Q1 and the Fiend Folio that she is specified as both a demon lord and a lesser goddess.

In 1e Deities and Demigods it said that the archdevils from the MM "should be treated as lesser gods, though they very rarely have human worshipers" It says the same thing for Lolth from the Fiend Folio and gives her a full deity entry.

In the later 1e Manual of the Planes it said "The arch-devils are a group of powerful devils (treat as lesser gods in their home plane)"

2e Forgotten Realms Powers & Pantheons has the demigod Gargauth, reportedly an outcast former Lord of the Nine.

I'll note also that the deity called The Lord of the Undead (a.k.a. Thasmudyan) in DMGR7 The Complete Book of Necromancers (affiliate link) is listed elsewhere in that same book as being a baatezu, making him (alongside Gargauth and Asmodeus) one of the very few devil gods in D&D canon.

I recall somewhere in 2e that fiendish lords could grant clerics up to 3rd level spells, or 4th level if actually in the presence of the demon lord. I can't recall where it was though, I'm guessing planescape but I'd have to hunt around for it.

Faiths and Avatars makes mention of quasi powers being able to grants spells to followers.

"Powers can grant any ability or spell of any level totheir priests that does not exceed their own capabilities. It is through thisability that deities give priests, paladins, and rangers their magical powersand spells. Note that only powers and other creatures ot quasidivine status(such as tanar'ri lords) can grant spells." - Faiths & Avatars, Pg. 16.

...but I'd still make archfiends equal to demi (Bel, The Pit Fiend)-intermediate (Mephistopheles) deities, while keeping Asmodeus (His "avatar" is Greater Deity, His true apocalyptic form is an Over Deity.) and the like at their given divine rankings.

FleshEatingBlackFlutterby said:

..., while keeping Asmodeus (His "avatar" is Greater Deity, His true apocalyptic form is an Over Deity.) and the like at their given divine rankings.

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Nay! Asmodeus is, and forever will be, weaker than Demogorgon!

Voadam said:

AD&D like a lot of D&D editions was all over the place on the defific status of things like archdevils and demon lords.

2e Planescape Planes of Law says it is not known whether the Lords of the Nine are powers or not, but also that "The known Lords are called on by insignificant primes to the point where it gets to be a bother."

2e Monster Mythology lists a few specific demon lords as full patron deities to specific monster races. Demogorgon for Ixitxachitl, Kostchie for frost giants, Baphomet for Minotaurs, Juiblex for aboleths, Sessinek for Lizard Kings, Lolth for drow, and Yeenoghu for gnolls. It does not list any of the Lords of the Nine as specific patron deities.

In 1e Greyhawk the setting specified for the Horned Society that "Deviltry is the religion of the Society, and its leading Hierarch is purported to be an evil high priest of 18th level." In 2e they were overthrown by Iuz so they do not have a lot of detail. The 2e City of Greyhawk has a hierarch of the Horned Society in one of its adventure sheets as a 14th level priest with full spells, "Here, Vazirian the Hierarch is busying himself with some last-minute proofreading of a new Unholy Text of Asmodeus."

The late 2e Guide to Hell said that of the Lords of the Nine only Asmodeus was a full god, the others were special cases, beings who controlled a planar layer but were not powers and had no mortal followers. Asmodeus also predated the needs of belief for powers and is said to have no followers in this product.

In 1e the D series of modules there are plenty of clerics of Lolth, and she is clearly referred to as a demoness and not referred to as a god while Blibdoolpoolp and the Elder Elemental god are referred to as gods. It is not until Q1 and the Fiend Folio that she is specified as both a demon lord and a lesser goddess.

In 1e Deities and Demigods it said that the archdevils from the MM "should be treated as lesser gods, though they very rarely have human worshipers" It says the same thing for Lolth from the Fiend Folio and gives her a full deity entry.

In the later 1e Manual of the Planes it said "The arch-devils are a group of powerful devils (treat as lesser gods in their home plane)"

2e Forgotten Realms Powers & Pantheons has the demigod Gargauth, reportedly an outcast former Lord of the Nine.
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Now that's what I call a lore dump! Kudos.

I was never too fond of the serpent form of Asmodeus and exclude it from the lore if I actually use him.

@dave2008 Asmodeus is ever so slightly weaker, but he is also harder to harm (+2 vs +3 weapons to hit might be moot by the time PC's get a chance to fight though). It would be an epic battle if the two of them clashed, one which would shake the foundations of reality itself!