D&D 5E Is trafficking in soul coins ostensibly evil?

GrimCo · Jul 8, 2024

Zardnaar said:
Older edition you goukd like your spells for alignment violations.

5E knock yourself out. Spend those coins.

Ok, i get you.

Well, true, there isn't any mechanical penalties for violating alignment. And, personally, i'm happy about that, alignment was always meh mechanic for me. But, RAW mechanic consequences aren't only ones you can impose. There are other, more creative ways for DMs to use if they wish which can be more fun for the story.

Scott Christian · Jul 8, 2024

ECMO3 said:
I am playing a hell-focused high level campaign and most of the party is Good aligned (mostly Lawful Good in fact).

I am a Lawful Neutral character and I am the one using soul coins the most (essentially the treasurer). While using soul coins does have an immoral feel to it, I don't know that it is out of character for such an alignment. I mean the souls are dammed either because they were bad people or because they made a deal with a Devil. From a Lawful Neutral point of view isn't this what they deserve?

Thoughts?

Yes, it is evil. A good person would want to rehabilitate the person, not turn them over to eternal damnation. Also, a good person understands the morality of what they did that was wrong, like make a deal with the devil, is circumstantial. A father saving his child, a lover saving their one true love, a king saving his kingdom - these sacrifices for the good of someone else could all have happened in a deal with a devil.

tomBitonti · Jul 8, 2024

R_J_K75 said:
MTF pg. 165 says:
Soul Trapping.
Mortal creatures slain by hellfire engines are doomed to join the infernal legions in mere hours unless powerful magic-wielders intervene on their behalf.

Pg 225 of BGitA says:
A creature might have been imprisoned as a result of defaulting on a deal, while another might be the victim of a night hag's curse.

Pg 226 of BGitA says:
Hellish Currency.
Soul coins are created by Mammon and his greater devils on Minauros, the third layer of the Nine Hells, in a vast chamber where the captured souls of evil mortals are bound into the coins.

Here's is what I originally said:
"I would say that the Nine Hells is LE. Its lawful so are it denizens for the most part, So I think that they would be selective in the souls they corrupt and usurp."

I will admit technically I think we are both right. The OP is asking about soul coins which appear in a FR adventure, they didn't say whether they are playing in a Forgotten Realms campaign or playing BGitA, but it's possible. If we put this into a FR context here's my opinion. Kelemvor (LN) Lord of the Dead, Judge of the Damned, judges dead souls where one of two things happen, they either travel to plane of the god they worshiped in life or they are deemed faithless if they worshiped no god and wander the Fugue Plane. Hellfire engines can destroy any mortal whose soul is then forced into the ranks of the Devils armies. I don't see a whole lot of mortals going to the Nine Hells let alone good ones, unless its for a very specific purpose. So, a soul coin created with a good soul is probably the exception, although not impossible. I could see some deities intervening on a good souls behalf to save them from that fate. My opinion, backed up by BGitA says that soul coins are made from evil souls, I believe that the majority of soul coins encountered contain an evil one.

Ugh, just no. I don’t know that I would ever use this in my games. Souls judged to go to a particular afterlife should, absent exceptional circumstances*, immediately ascend or descend to their designated plane. They might resist this, perhaps, but would ever feel a pull.

* I can see means which would trap particular souls. This should be difficult, rare, and the source of great conflicts.

Likewise, it really ought to be impossible, except in very very exceptional circumstances, to destroy a soul. I’d much rather have soul coins inflict terrible agony on an imprisoned soul when used as fuel. Then disintegrate when used up — freeing the trapped soul — or at least require a recharge of some sort.

I think that makes for a more interesting (and approachable) question: Is inflicting terrible agony evil, even if the soul feeling the agony was condemned to hell?

TomB

R_J_K75 · Jul 8, 2024

tomBitonti said:
Ugh, just no. I don’t know that I would ever use this in my games. Souls judged to go to a particular afterlife should, absent exceptional circumstances*, immediately ascend or descend to their designated plane. They might resist this, perhaps, but would ever feel a pull.

* I can see means which would trap particular souls. This should be difficult, rare, and the source of great conflicts.

Likewise, it really ought to be impossible, except in very very exceptional circumstances, to destroy a soul. I’d much rather have soul coins inflict terrible agony on an imprisoned soul when used as fuel. Then disintegrate when used up — freeing the trapped soul — or at least require a recharge of some sort.

I think that makes for a more interesting (and approachable) question: Is inflicting terrible agony evil, even if the soul feeling the agony was condemned to hell?

Not sure what this has to do with what I wrote, but sure

deadman1204 · Jul 8, 2024

A good way to think about soul coins is working at a slave company. You don't handle slaves yourself, your just keeping track of numbers on paper, and selling these numbers to other people. Yet you still own slaves and are selling them. Its no less evil simply because you're in an office.
Soul coins are the same. You are handling real souls. Just because the way you handle them is neat and clean doesn't make it morally any better.

Zardnaar · Jul 8, 2024

deadman1204 said:
A good way to think about soul coins is working at a slave company. You don't handle slaves yourself, your just keeping track of numbers on paper, and selling these numbers to other people. Yet you still own slaves and are selling them. Its no less evil simply because you're in an office.
Soul coins are the same. You are handling real souls. Just because the way you handle them is neat and clean doesn't make it morally any better.

That could also be LN. You're going along with whatever those in power say is fine. Depending on ones participation. If those in power change to LG the LN types will sign the paperwork freeing the slaves.

People like to think of themselves as good including evil types. Neutral won't actively advance the cause of neutrality but they're a combination of indifferent, as long as it's not me, or occupied with their own concerns.

deadman1204 · Jul 8, 2024

Zardnaar said:
That could also be LN. You're going along with whatever thise in power say is fine. Depending on ones participation.

People like to think of themselves as good including evil types.

I Agree. Someone owning a slave doesn't immediately because totally evil. If they live in a land where owning slaves is standard, then its less morally repugnant to. I could see neutral slave owners in those cases.
Same with soul coins, you don't have to be evil to have a soul coin, even if its clearly not a "good" action. Owning a soul coin in avernus would be "less bad" than owning a soul coin on the prime. Its not part of the culture, which feeds into what is right/wrong.

As in all things, it then depends on what you do. Do you try to find ways to destroy the coins to free the souls? Do you just spend them at the market? Do you put them in the hell machines that litearlly destroy the souls?

Necropolitan · Jul 8, 2024

deadman1204 said:
Someone owning a slave doesn't immediately because totally evil. If they live in a land where owning slaves is standard, then its less morally repugnant to. I could see neutral slave owners in those cases.

No. Slavery is an absolute evil.

And the text explicitly contradicts your claims, soul coin use is Evil.

Zardnaar · Jul 8, 2024

Necropolitan said:
No. Slavery is an absolute evil.

And the text explicitly contradicts your claims, soul coin use is Evil.

Slave trade is evil but what happens if you live in a slave owning society and you inherit property including slaves? Ideally you free them but what if there's no legal mechanism to do so?

Ine issue in Rome was people dumping elderly slaves (who faced starvation) and overall lack of social support. If you freed a slave for example there's no jobs for the (because slaves do it). Unless you provide a job as well.

So patronage emerges. You free a slave who then basically works for you and you're their employer now. What if you can't afford to pay a free slave a living wage because of debt?

And yes these were real social issues. Freed slaves found a patron, continued the cycle or turned to crime. Freed slaves became citizens which also caused issues with parts of the empire that lacked citizenship.

deadman1204 · Jul 8, 2024

Necropolitan said:
No. Slavery is an absolute evil.

And the text explicitly contradicts your claims, soul coin use is Evil.

I'm ignoring what the text says, because the book is comically incapable of determining good from evil. Burning someone alive for stealing a penny is an rightous act of goodness according to dnd (fireball on a goblin that stole someone's belt pouch). This is why we all ignore the alignment chart, because to call it utterly worthless is an understatement.

D&D 5E Is trafficking in soul coins ostensibly evil?

GrimCo

Adventurer

Scott Christian

Hero

tomBitonti

Adventurer

R_J_K75

Legend

deadman1204

Explorer

Zardnaar

Legend

deadman1204

Explorer

Necropolitan

Adventurer

Zardnaar

Legend

deadman1204

Explorer

Similar Threads

Voidrunner's Codex