D&D 5E Quests from the Infinite Staircase TOC and Zargon.

MonsterEnvy · Jul 5, 2024

Sulicius said:
Actually, the Forge of Foes baseline for CR17 is the following:

CR 17
AC/DC: 20
HP: 246
Atk/Prof: +12
Damage Per Round: 107

It's preeeetty close, even closer if Zargon hits 3-4 characters with its breath weapon. I do think the counterspelling and anti-magic horn attack will make him a lot more tough. I see a lot of folks saying fighters would obviously have a way to deal fire damage, and sure, in a campaign, a party might have learnt about his weaknesses. Otherwise, they will need to deal that fire damage every round, which can be more difficult than you think.

Plus Zargon has Regen and DR. I think he matches to CR 17.

Upper_Krust · Jul 6, 2024

Sulicius said:
Actually, the Forge of Foes baseline for CR17 is the following:

CR 17
AC/DC: 20
HP: 246
Atk/Prof: +12
Damage Per Round: 107

Seems slightly lower than what Mike mentioned on his channel prior to the FoF release. I'll assume play-testing suggested going lower, hence the change.

DPR 107 is basically the DMG average.

Sulicius said:
It's preeeetty close, even closer if Zargon hits 3-4 characters with its breath weapon. I do think the counterspelling and anti-magic horn attack will make him a lot more tough. I see a lot of folks saying fighters would obviously have a way to deal fire damage, and sure, in a campaign, a party might have learnt about his weaknesses. Otherwise, they will need to deal that fire damage every round, which can be more difficult than you think.

Other than the damage I think the Zargon stats are fine (and quite fun).

Arguably the bigger question is who are the Zargon stats for? Parties of Levels 7-8? If so fair enough. They likely won't be able to permanently kill him at that level so his 'Returner' moniker holds out.

But 18,000 XP means he is supposed to be a deadly encounter for a group of Four 12th-level characters...eyeballing it he simply isn't.

He's more like CR 13/10,000 XP, which would give him an official DPR of 83

Upper_Krust · Jul 6, 2024

dave2008 said:
Just an FYI, dragon breath weapon damage is likely to go down in the new MM. They have been revising dragon breath weapon damage down ever since the MM. For example:

CR 24 Ancient Red Dragon breath weapon: 91 Fire Damage
CR 26 Ancient Time Dragon breath weapon: 52 Force Damage ( it does have other effect though)
CR 27 Great Wyrm Red Dragon breath weapon: 78 fire damage

When gamers complain the high CR monsters are not dealing enough damage I fully expect WotC to listen to the feedback and then do the complete opposite and tone down high CR monster damage...because of course they would.

Upper_Krust · Jul 6, 2024

Stalker0 said:
Going back to Zargon for a moment, in theory how he should throw down is:

1) grapple the fighter types at his reach and NOT reel them in (ideally put them at 15 feet away) That way they can’t melee attack him without breaking the grapple which at least cost them an attack. Or if they have no reach weapons go for 10 feet so you can still get in other attacks.

Surely they could still attack his tentacles (with disadvantage).

dave2008 · Jul 6, 2024

Upper_Krust said:
When gamers complain the high CR monsters are not dealing enough damage I fully expect WotC to listen to the feedback and then do the complete opposite and tone down high CR monster damage...because of course they would.

They are making some monster hit harder, but by their standard some of the MM monsters hit to hard already. They didn't promise that monsters would hit harder in 2024 (though it was hinted), they promised they would more accurately reflect their CR. That means some go up and others go down.

Upper_Krust · Jul 6, 2024

MonsterEnvy said:
Plus Zargon has Regen and DR. I think he matches to CR 17.

Would you say he is a deadly threat for a Level 12 Party?

dave2008 · Jul 6, 2024

Upper_Krust said:
When gamers complain the high CR monsters are not dealing enough damage I fully expect WotC to listen to the feedback and then do the complete opposite and tone down high CR monster damage...because of course they would.

They are making some monster hit harder, but by their standard some of the MM monsters hit to hard already. They didn't promise that monsters would hit harder in 2024 (though it was hinted), they promised they would more accurately reflect their CR. That means some go up and others go down.

dave2008 · Jul 6, 2024

Upper_Krust said:
Would you say he is a deadly threat for a Level 12 Party?

Like so many things, it depends on the party.

Upper_Krust · Jul 6, 2024

dave2008 said:
They are making some monster hit harder, but by their standard some of the MM monsters hit to hard already. They didn't promise that monsters would hit harder in 2024 (though it was hinted), they promised they would more accurately reflect their CR. That means some go up and others go down.

Have you noticed any official high CR monster that needs to be toned down? I can think of one or two low CR monsters maybe, but nothing above CR 10 springs to mind.

dave2008 · Jul 6, 2024

Upper_Krust said:
Have you noticed any official high CR monster that needs to be toned down? I can think of one or two low CR monsters maybe, but nothing above CR 10 springs to mind.

It all depends on your perspective. By the DMG guidelines dragons (at least the red) hit to hard. The red should have a CR of 26+ per the DMG guidelines, see below.

Now, I can design a CR 24 monster that follows the guidelines and deals more damage per hit. But by WotC standards, yes the red needs to be toned down.

Ancient Red Dragon

Ancient Blue Dragon:

D&D 5E Quests from the Infinite Staircase TOC and Zargon.

MonsterEnvy

Legend

Upper_Krust

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dave2008

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Upper_Krust

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dave2008

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Upper_Krust

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dave2008

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