D&D 5E If you don't like ASI at character creation...

ezo · Wednesday at 10:00 AM

Horwath said:
Leave ability modifiers for ABILITY CHECKS, rest uses prof bonus instead of ability bonus.
That is, AC, DC, attacks, damage, saves all uses prof bonus.

No, they should have some impact, just not the overwhelming one they have in 5E. In prior editions with larger "proficiency bonuses" (attack bonus +10 to +20, save bonuses up to +12, etc.), the +4 or +5 bonus would be felt but not as much of the total. In 5E, with proficiency bonus +6, that +4 or +5 bonus nearly matches it.

While I understand the desire for bounded accuracy, 5E is too bounded. Ideally, keeping (about the same) +4 bonus for ability, proficiency should scale up to +8 to +12 at least.

For homebrews developing "D&D games" with lower maximum level, doing a simple +1 per level would work. Capping PCs at +4 ability modifier (at least at 1st level) would match as well.

Horwath · Wednesday at 10:14 AM

ezo said:
No, they should have some impact, just not the overwhelming one they have in 5E. In prior editions with larger "proficiency bonuses" (attack bonus +10 to +20, save bonuses up to +12, etc.), the +4 or +5 bonus would be felt but not as much of the total. In 5E, with proficiency bonus +6, that +4 or +5 bonus nearly matches it.

While I understand the desire for bounded accuracy, 5E is too bounded. Ideally, keeping (about the same) +4 bonus for ability, proficiency should scale up to +8 to +12 at least.

For homebrews developing "D&D games" with lower maximum level, doing a simple +1 per level would work. Capping PCs at +4 ability modifier (at least at 1st level) would match as well.

it does not matter if ability bonus is added to +4 or +24 proficiency bonus. It's the same thing.

if you have expected hit rate at certain level of 60% then 2 less bonus from your ability reduces that to 50% or relative 20% DPS loss(even more as you add less to damage roll).

TwoSix · Wednesday at 6:10 PM

Just get rid of proficiency bonus entirely; if a character is non-proficient, then they receive a -5 penalty to the roll.

The main bonuses to leveling, numerically, should only be Hit Points, damage expressions, and certain class features and magic items that give specific bonuses.

ezo · Wednesday at 10:39 PM

Horwath said:
it does not matter if ability bonus is added to +4 or +24 proficiency bonus. It's the same thing.

It matters a great deal.

+5 to +4 is over 100% impact, +5 to +24 is barely 20%.

PC #1 has ability +5, PC #2 as ability +1.

If proficiency stops at +6 (5E model), their bonuses are +11 vs. +7, the first is more than a 50% increase over the second!
Now consider proficiency stopping at +20 (3Eish?), the bonuses are +25 vs. +21, now the first is not even a 20% increase over the second.

In the long run, the ability modifier is much less impactful if proficiency bonus is higher. You can have a PC with a lower ability bonus and still do reasonably well.

Of course, it works even better if you scale back on the ability bonus, like 18 is +3 such as in B/X.

Horwath said:
if you have expected hit rate at certain level of 60% then 2 less bonus from your ability reduces that to 50% or relative 20% DPS loss(even more as you add less to damage roll)

Sure, and that +2 difference is about the most I would want to see ability contribute. I like B/X with +1 to +3 max....

Horwath · Wednesday at 11:06 PM

ezo said:
It matters a great deal.

+5 to +4 is over 100% impact, +5 to +24 is barely 20%.

PC #1 has ability +5, PC #2 as ability +1.

If proficiency stops at +6 (5E model), their bonuses are +11 vs. +7, the first is more than a 50% increase over the second!
Now consider proficiency stopping at +20 (3Eish?), the bonuses are +25 vs. +21, now the first is not even a 20% increase over the second.

In the long run, the ability modifier is much less impactful if proficiency bonus is higher. You can have a PC with a lower ability bonus and still do reasonably well.

Of course, it works even better if you scale back on the ability bonus, like 18 is +3 such as in B/X.

Sure, and that +2 difference is about the most I would want to see ability contribute. I like B/X with +1 to +3 max....

again, it's irrelevant unless you just want higher level characters to roflstomp lower level characters.

If DC or AC follows proficiency/attack bonuses, it's irrelevant for given level if that bonus is +5 or +25.

it only matters when you look at different levels. And bounded accuracy has contributed to have low level monsters a threat to even high level characters in a horde. For better or worse.

ezo · Thursday at 12:22 AM

Horwath said:
it only matters when you look at different levels

Which is what I am doing...

Micah Sweet · Thursday at 12:34 AM

g00se99994 said:
All I want to use is point buy. Everyone at the table builds a character that is statistically even.

Point buy is aesthetically unsatisfying. I just don't have enough laser-focus on PC attribute balance to care.

Micah Sweet · Thursday at 12:37 AM

Horwath said:
I hear you, but those "widgets" are also here to fix bunch of odd scores that you could get with rolling abilities.

16,16,14,14 is always better than 15,15,15,15.

that is why if we ever roll, it's (4d3D1)×2, with single +2 ASI

So what? Not everyone's score are going to break in the most mathematically efficient way. It's more logical and gasp realistic when they don't, in fact.

Corinnguard · Thursday at 12:37 AM

Micah Sweet said:
Point buy is aesthetically unsatisfying. I just don't have enough laser-focus on PC attribute balance to care.

I prefer to take my chances and roll for my ability scores.

TwoSix · Thursday at 12:46 AM

AD&D 1st edition Method III is the best rolling method.

D&D 5E If you don't like ASI at character creation...

ezo

Where is that Singe?

Horwath

Legend

TwoSix

"Diegetics", by L. Ron Gygax

ezo

Where is that Singe?

Horwath

Legend

ezo

Where is that Singe?

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast

Corinnguard

Hero

TwoSix

"Diegetics", by L. Ron Gygax

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