D&D General D&D Editions: Anybody Else Feel Like They Don't Fit In?

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Agreed.


Huh? Do you mean they do proficiency plus a die roll? Otherwise that's a big nerf in the floor for expertise...
Instead of doubling proficiency bonus for expertise, you add a d4 to the roll. So a PC with expertise in Stealth would be rolling d20 + d4 + proficiency bonus + (probably) Dex bonus. If the PC has expertise in the same thing from more than one source, the die goes up (d6, d8, d10) with each source. Certain class abilities allow you to break the d10 soft cap.
 

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ezo

Where is that Singe?
Instead of doubling proficiency bonus for expertise, you add a d4 to the roll. So a PC with expertise in Stealth would be rolling d20 + d4 + proficiency bonus + (probably) Dex bonus. If the PC has expertise in the same thing from more than one source, the die goes up (d6, d8, d10) with each source. Certain class abilities allow you to break the d10 soft cap.
Oi. No thank you. I know you love Level Up, so that's awesome, but such systems seem needlessly complex to my mind.

Coupled with the idea of using a proficiency die, you'd be rolling a d20 + d6 (instead of +3 proficiency) + d4 (for expertise) + ability modifier + (why not throw in...) d4 (guidance) + whatever else. Too much for me. 🤷‍♂️
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Oi. No thank you. I know you love Level Up, so that's awesome, but such systems seem needlessly complex to my mind.

Coupled with the idea of using a proficiency die, you'd be rolling a d20 + d6 (instead of +3 proficiency) + d4 (for expertise) + ability modifier + (why not throw in...) d4 (guidance) + whatever else. Too much for me. 🤷‍♂️
Fair enough. We don't have to all like the same things.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Although for certain things, you just have to make a decision on how they progress. Ignore the bonus for a second: how much can a STR 30 character lift? Is he 2x as strong as his STR 20 counterpart? 5x? 10x? More?

The 5e RAW answer, by the way, is 1.5x, which is ludicrous, because they map a linear improvement in making checks (the most frequently used part of this stat)! to a linear progression in lifting capacity. Which is both dumb, and rather obviously too limiting.
And also mathematically dubious because it takes what was a bell curve (the 3-18 part) and makes the upper long-tail of that curve linear instead.
 

Edgar Ironpelt

Adventurer
I doubt such a god would exist, or if it did the God of Brutal Melee Attacks would beat the pulp out of it. ;)
Not a god, and not of dodging, but there is the mythological example of the Buddha, who Did Not Get Hit by all the attacks that the armies of the demon-god Mara threw at him.

Anyway, it isn't god vs. god, it would be PCs vs. god. The Archery God would always hit the PCs, always... and the God of Dodging Ranged Attack would never be hit by a ranged attack from a PC... never.

The point was (obvious to most but apparently not all) that when something is so far beyond PCs, you don't need to quanitfy it with a number. LIkewise, when it is so trivial, it doesn't need a number, either.

I'm not so confident about saying "never" when it comes to PCs, as I don't always expect players to "color inside the lines" of bounded accuracy. Nor am I confident about what is "obvious" to me always being "obvious" to my players, or vice versa.

Fine. You like absurdly high and low numbers, then.
No, I like standards and guidelines other than GM whim when it comes to deciding between "that's obvious" and "you have to roll for that."

Also, I vaguely remember various arguments in other threads about whether or not a PC can spot various items or clues in a room without having to make a roll and/or going into nasty excruciating detail in describing where he looks. I'd really like to short-circuit such arguments when I play or GM, and this is my method for doing so: If the task really is easy enough, or the character really is good enough, then the mechanics will hand out an automatic success.

"Absurdly high numbers" is just a stress-test for this: If the mechanics give the right results for those absurd numbers, as well as for ordinary average numbers, then they can be trusted to give decent results for in-between cases also.

Depends on what direction you're looking? ;)

In all seriousness, seeing the forest through the trees is sort of a real thing. Especially when you point out something with a "see that over there?" People start scanning and do miss the obvious--right in front of them.
That's actually an argument in my favor. Sometimes the "obvious" actually is not obvious. Thus the desirability of mechanics that can handle such maybe-obvious cases.

It has been a while since 3.5e, but what sort of penalties are you even talking about? I mean, if seriously this was a thing for you then I can see more and more why 5E went with (overly) bounded accuracy.
A football field is 100 yards or 300 feet. That's a -30 penalty by the 3.5e RAW, and 300 feet is not all that huge a number by real-world outdoor distances. And while the RAW insists on very short "within the video-game-screen" distances for encounters, not everyone plays outdoor encounters that way, at least not all the time.
 

Staffan

Legend
I do find it interesting that Dragonbane relabels the results of a 1 and 20, by giving them names (“dragon” and “demon,” respectively).

Which seems to me an implicit recognition by the designers that my issue isn’t unique.
It likely has more to do with the Swedish version being named "Drakar och Demoner", or "Dragons and Demons" if you translate it to English.
 


ezo

Where is that Singe?
Not a god, and not of dodging, but there is the mythological example of the Buddha, who Did Not Get Hit by all the attacks that the armies of the demon-god Mara threw at him.



I'm not so confident about saying "never" when it comes to PCs, as I don't always expect players to "color inside the lines" of bounded accuracy. Nor am I confident about what is "obvious" to me always being "obvious" to my players, or vice versa.


No, I like standards and guidelines other than GM whim when it comes to deciding between "that's obvious" and "you have to roll for that."

Also, I vaguely remember various arguments in other threads about whether or not a PC can spot various items or clues in a room without having to make a roll and/or going into nasty excruciating detail in describing where he looks. I'd really like to short-circuit such arguments when I play or GM, and this is my method for doing so: If the task really is easy enough, or the character really is good enough, then the mechanics will hand out an automatic success.

"Absurdly high numbers" is just a stress-test for this: If the mechanics give the right results for those absurd numbers, as well as for ordinary average numbers, then they can be trusted to give decent results for in-between cases also.


That's actually an argument in my favor. Sometimes the "obvious" actually is not obvious. Thus the desirability of mechanics that can handle such maybe-obvious cases.


A football field is 100 yards or 300 feet. That's a -30 penalty by the 3.5e RAW, and 300 feet is not all that huge a number by real-world outdoor distances. And while the RAW insists on very short "within the video-game-screen" distances for encounters, not everyone plays outdoor encounters that way, at least not all the time.
Ok, sorry but none of this is worth my time or effort. You like what you like, go with that. Bye.
 

I sometimes have the feeling I don't fit in. Because I am notoreously optimistic. I don't see the sky falling like everybodey else.
Maybe it is because I don't see the world in black and white. Probably being good at math helps me to bring things into context that others see as malicious intends.
 
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Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
I sometimes have the feeling I don't fit in. Because I am notreously optimistic. I don't see the sky falling like everybodey else.
Maybe it is because I don't see the world in black and white. Probably being good at math helps me to bring things into context that others see as malicious intends.
What's with the humble brag? This reads as an explanation of why you're better than other people.
 

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