D&D General D&D Editions: Anybody Else Feel Like They Don't Fit In?

ezo

ezo

Where is that Singe?
Edgar Ironpelt said:
So what happens when the God of Archery shoots an arrow at the God of Dodging Ranged Attacks?
Click to expand...
I doubt such a god would exist, or if it did the God of Brutal Melee Attacks would beat the pulp out of it. ;)

Anyway, it isn't god vs. god, it would be PCs vs. god. The Archery God would always hit the PCs, always... and the God of Dodging Ranged Attack would never be hit by a ranged attack from a PC... never.

The point was (obvious to most but apparently not all) that when something is so far beyond PCs, you don't need to quanitfy it with a number. LIkewise, when it is so trivial, it doesn't need a number, either.

Edgar Ironpelt said:
I want mechanics that don't pack it in when the absurdly difficult meets the ridiculously capable. Or when the absurdly easy meets the ridiculously inept. That's why I prefer inflationary numbers, despite their drawbacks, to most any sort of bounded accuracy.
Click to expand...
Fine. You like absurdly high and low numbers, then.

Edgar Ironpelt said:
On the other hand, there's the question: "What is the DC (in 3.5e) for a Spot check to spot a mountain?"
Click to expand...
Depends on what direction you're looking? ;)

In all seriousness, seeing the forest through the trees is sort of a real thing. Especially when you point out something with a "see that over there?" People start scanning and do miss the obvious--right in front of them.

Edgar Ironpelt said:
I've never carried things quite that far, but I have worked out that the DC to spot a Gargantuan creature who is moving and not trying to hide is DC -36 (negative 36). Given enough penalties (e.g. for distance) it is possible to fail to notice such a creature.
Click to expand...
It has been a while since 3.5e, but what sort of penalties are you even talking about? I mean, if seriously this was a thing for you then I can see more and more why 5E went with (overly) bounded accuracy.
 

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JohnSnow

JohnSnow

Hero
I would also note (something the creators of Mutants & Masterminds observed) that limitless inflationary bonuses on a d20 renders the die roll, if not meaningless, greatly diminished. Now, there is a fix for this, but it gets us into the world of dice pools (and Zocchi dice).

Nearly every bonus can be represented by a die roll that averages just a bit higher:
+1 = 1d2
+2 = 1d4
+3 = 1d6
+4 = 1d8
+5 = 1d10
+6 = 1d12
+7 = 1d14
+8 = 1d16
+10 = 1d20

Which means you can do unbounded accuracy and still make the dice rolls meaningful. It’s a little clunky though.

Although for certain things, you just have to make a decision on how they progress. Ignore the bonus for a second: how much can a STR 30 character lift? Is he 2x as strong as his STR 20 counterpart? 5x? 10x? More?

The 5e RAW answer, by the way, is 1.5x, which is ludicrous, because they map a linear improvement in making checks (the most frequently used part of this stat)! to a linear progression in lifting capacity. Which is both dumb, and rather obviously too limiting.
 



ezo

ezo

Where is that Singe?
JohnSnow said:
Which means you can do unbounded accuracy and still make the dice rolls meaningful. It’s a little clunky though.
Click to expand...
While I love the idea of the proficiency die, the slight clunkiness of d20 + dPD gets a bit awkward. Also, although the math is fairly simple, I've seen way to many players make mistakes with such simple calculations so forward it myself.

JohnSnow said:
Although for certain things, you just have to make a decision on how they progress. Ignore the bonus for a second: how much can a STR 30 character lift? Is he 2x as strong as his STR 20 counterpart? 5x? 10x? More?

The 5e RAW answer, by the way, is 1.5x, which is ludicrous, because they map a linear improvement in making checks (the most frequently used part of this stat)! to a linear progression in lifting capacity. Which is both dumb, and rather obviously too limiting.
Click to expand...
When it comes to ability scores, and more particularly ability modifiers, myself and a few others have always liked the idea of each point of modifier being single standard deviation improvement.

While outdated, using the concept of simple IQ works well to demonstrate my meaning.

Average I.Q. is 100, with 15-point standard deviation. So, each +1 modifier would increase I.Q. by 15 points. An Intelligence 16 with +3 modifier would represent (by this measure) an I.Q. 145., while Intelligence 20 (+5) would be I.Q. 175.

Of course, I.Q. scores go much higher, etc., and it isn't a great measure, plus in 5E it would only be a small part of Intelligence.

For Strength, each +1 should represent a 50% increase perhaps. If we begin (for discussion's sake) at STR 10 allowing you to carry 100 lbs (or lift or whatever measure you want).

1720194142909.png


This table assumes the 5E rule also for doubling with each size increase.

While not ideal, tweaking could make it work I'm sure.
 

JohnSnow

JohnSnow

Hero
ezo said:
While I love the idea of the proficiency die, the slight clunkiness of d20 + dPD gets a bit awkward. Also, although the math is fairly simple, I've seen way to many players make mistakes with such simple calculations so forward it myself.


When it comes to ability scores, and more particularly ability modifiers, myself and a few others have always liked the idea of each point of modifier being single standard deviation improvement.

While outdated, using the concept of simple IQ works well to demonstrate my meaning.

Average I.Q. is 100, with 15-point standard deviation. So, each +1 modifier would increase I.Q. by 15 points. An Intelligence 16 with +3 modifier would represent (by this measure) an I.Q. 145., while Intelligence 20 (+5) would be I.Q. 175.

Of course, I.Q. scores go much higher, etc., and it isn't a great measure, plus in 5E it would only be a small part of Intelligence.

For Strength, each +1 should represent a 50% increase perhaps. If we begin (for discussion's sake) at STR 10 allowing you to carry 100 lbs (or lift or whatever measure you want).

View attachment 370779

This table assumes the 5E rule also for doubling with each size increase.

While not ideal, tweaking could make it work I'm sure.
Click to expand...
I like that table pretty well. I played around with 30% per point of STR (not bonus), but that escalated a bit TOO fast.

To my mind, you map 10 where D&D puts it, and 20 is your Batman/Captain America/Conan characters.

10x per +5 bonus feels about right to me. A STR 20 character is as strong as “10 normal men.” A STR 30 character is 10 of that person (maybe 5 tons?). That’s roughly enough for Hercules, as depicted in most myths.
 

Micah Sweet

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
JohnSnow said:
I would also note (something the creators of Mutants & Masterminds observed) that limitless inflationary bonuses on a d20 renders the die roll, if not meaningless, greatly diminished. Now, there is a fix for this, but it gets us into the world of dice pools (and Zocchi dice).

Nearly every bonus can be represented by a die roll that averages just a bit higher:
+1 = 1d2
+2 = 1d4
+3 = 1d6
+4 = 1d8
+5 = 1d10
+6 = 1d12
+7 = 1d14
+8 = 1d16
+10 = 1d20

Which means you can do unbounded accuracy and still make the dice rolls meaningful. It’s a little clunky though.

Although for certain things, you just have to make a decision on how they progress. Ignore the bonus for a second: how much can a STR 30 character lift? Is he 2x as strong as his STR 20 counterpart? 5x? 10x? More?

The 5e RAW answer, by the way, is 1.5x, which is ludicrous, because they map a linear improvement in making checks (the most frequently used part of this stat)! to a linear progression in lifting capacity. Which is both dumb, and rather obviously too limiting.
Click to expand...
This is why strength and fighting ability should be tracked separately.
 

Micah Sweet

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
ezo said:
While I love the idea of the proficiency die, the slight clunkiness of d20 + dPD gets a bit awkward. Also, although the math is fairly simple, I've seen way to many players make mistakes with such simple calculations so forward it myself.


When it comes to ability scores, and more particularly ability modifiers, myself and a few others have always liked the idea of each point of modifier being single standard deviation improvement.

While outdated, using the concept of simple IQ works well to demonstrate my meaning.

Average I.Q. is 100, with 15-point standard deviation. So, each +1 modifier would increase I.Q. by 15 points. An Intelligence 16 with +3 modifier would represent (by this measure) an I.Q. 145., while Intelligence 20 (+5) would be I.Q. 175.

Of course, I.Q. scores go much higher, etc., and it isn't a great measure, plus in 5E it would only be a small part of Intelligence.

For Strength, each +1 should represent a 50% increase perhaps. If we begin (for discussion's sake) at STR 10 allowing you to carry 100 lbs (or lift or whatever measure you want).

View attachment 370779

This table assumes the 5E rule also for doubling with each size increase.

While not ideal, tweaking could make it work I'm sure.
Click to expand...
Level Up uses the proficiency die for situations in which the PC has expertise in a skill (or skill specialty). Works great!
 

ezo

ezo

Where is that Singe?
JohnSnow said:
I like that table pretty well. I played around with 30% per point of STR (not bonus), but that escalated a bit TOO fast.

To my mind, you map 10 where D&D puts it, and 20 is your Batman/Captain America/Conan characters.

10x per +5 bonus feels about right to me. A STR 20 character is as strong as “10 normal men.” A STR 30 character is 10 of that person (maybe 5 tons?). That’s roughly enough for Hercules, as depicted in most myths.
Click to expand...
30% per point would be about 70% per modifier, so a bit more than the 50% I suggested (which would get "worse" with higher numbers).

I think STR 10 as 5E has it works fine, too, but to my knowledge there is quite a bit of difference between what Batman, Cap, and Conan could be able to do, so putting them all at STR 20 might or might not work.

FWIW, a 58.5% increase per modifier gives you nearly exactly x10 per +5 increase. The table would be this:

1720196188010.png


If you want to mirror the default 5E STR x 15 for maximum capacity, just increase everything by 50%.
 


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