D&D General Dragons of Chaos and Law in Mythology?

Enrico Poli1 said:

1.Generally in mythology, the Dragon is a symbol of Chaos, and therefore of Evil, whereas the gods are symbols of Law, the Order of creation, therefore of Good. Example: Tiamat and Apsu in Sumerian mythoes.
2.In a similar way, in the Bible, Dragon = Serpent = the Devil.
3.BUT in the Hermetic, gnostic, alchemical, esoterical tradition, the Devil is the good guy. And has two faces, the Red one (Chaos) and the Gold one (Law) . Dungeons & Dragons is a game inherently informed by this tradition, so one can say that both chromatic and metallic dragons, both Chaos and Law, are expressions of the same principle, as yin and yang

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As Marandahir notes:

Marandahir said:

Yellow or Gold Dragon of the Center in Chinese mythology aligns heavily with Law.

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Gygax mentions that the good dragons are inspired by east Asian myths.

The 1970 edition of "The Book of Imaginary Beings" by JL Borges and M Guerro has sections on Chinese Dragons, Eastern Dragons, and Western Dragons. The section on Chinese dragons says:



It doesn't name any though.

The section on Eastern Dragons mentions Celestial Dragons that carry the palaces of the gods on their backs, Divine Dragons that make "winds and rain for the benefit of mankind", Terrestrial Dragons that "determine the course of streams and rivers", and Subterranean Dragons "stands watch over treasures forbidden to men". There are five Sea-Dragon Kings, "the chief is in the middle, the other four correspond to the cardinal points". It also doesn't name any.

Barber's "Companion to World Mythology" lists some by name - but it is in 1979 and so outside my range. I'm looking for in the older age range that gives names.

Going through the rest of the dragons in Funk & Wagnalls Standard Dictionary of Folklore, Mythology, and Legend by M. Leach and J. Fried (1972). Most aren't in the index or dragon entry as dragons.

Named dragons:













Ching Yang - the dragon king (mentioned in the back)
Fafnir shapechanged into a dragon.

Gandarewa - "a monster of the deep" and "a dragon eager to destroy the good in the world".

Humbaba - dragon defeated by Gilgamesh (in general section on folklore and myth in the back)
Kur - the dragon-serpent, precursor of Tiamat and Leviathan. The cosmic dragon who had held the primeval waters.

Illuyankas - mentioned multiple times in the general section on folklore and myths in the back.

Ladon - dragon who never slept and guarded the apples of the Hesperiedes, was slain by Hercules



Midgard Serpent is mentioned as sometimes interpreted as a dragon.

Python of Delphi



Tsing Lung (under the entry for the constellation scropio) was "the beneficient Azure Dragon of a former Chinese Zodiac"

Tugarin - mentioned under Aljosa Popovic. Doesn't say anything.

Yammu - the dragon in the underworld who was enemy of Baal (in general section on folklore and myth in the back)


Types of dragons:

Aitvaras - a Lithuanian house spirit "in the shape of a dragon". (Possibly unique)

Ajatar or Ajattara - "The dragon; an evil female spirit of the woods who suckles snakes and produces diseases; the Devil of the Woods of Finnish folklore. In southern Estonia [...] the mother or daughter of the devil." (Possibly unique)

Estonian demons of fortune can appear in the shape of a dragon (called a tulihand or pisuhand).

Firedrake in Germanic and Celtic lore, like Beowulf killed.
Under Dragon cult:

steeldragons said:

This would seem to be a shortcoming or incomplete presentation from Barber. As just about any other mythology source references her as a dragon....or draconic/dragon-like "monster."

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As Wikipedia mentions on Tiamat's page, a lot of those assertions are unsupported by evidence. I have already mentioned Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament - which is a work of actual scholarship and not pop non-fiction - where she is not once referred to as a dragon or dragon-like monster. The Enuma Eliš does ascribe animal-like physical qualities, but her form may also be mutable, as she is also described as the primordial salt water ocean.

There was some draconic iconography that was thought to be Tiamat, which has now been debunked or critically questioned by scholarship.

Some people once thought that this dragon at the feet of Marduk (pictured below) was Tiamat.

However this dragon is actually Mušḫuššu, a sacred symbol of Marduk.

Then there is the picture below, which is on Tiamat's Wikipedia page.

Although this image is commonly associated with Tiamat vs. Marduk, we actually don't know if it is either Tiamat or Marduk. Here is a museum, for example, talking about the figure on the left as Anzu.

In general, East Asian dragons are associated with the emperor of a particular state, and usually just rulership, dynasties and stable government. I would say that by default East Asian dragons have lawful connotations though there are examples of wrathful and evil dragons as well.

If we're trying to fill out all the points on a D&D alignment chart, I would definitely have the second edition Oriental Adventures lung dragons as the lawful oriented dragons.

Aldarc said:

As Wikipedia mentions on Tiamat's page, a lot of those assertions are unsupported by evidence. I have already mentioned Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament - which is a work of actual scholarship and not pop non-fiction - where she is not once referred to as a dragon or dragon-like monster. The Enuma Eliš does ascribe animal-like physical qualities, but her form may also be mutable, as she is also described as the primordial salt water ocean.

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Was there a time in the mid-20th century where dragon was taken as a generic mythological role and not like a species or type by the kind of folks who would author books on mythology? For example, even the "Ancient near eastern texts...." use of it in some section titles?

One of the other pop-books notes in some places that some creatures took on the role of the dragon (but it never describes them as taking the form of one, iirc one was a cyclops like creature).

@jdrakeh posted in another thread that Smithsonian Magazine this month had a D&D article. Related to this thread, it also has one on Dragon's around the world...


The author describes themself as a writer and reporter with a background in literature, international studies and research in case the presentation of Tiamat disagrees with researchers in the field elsewhere.

Aldarc said:

As Wikipedia mentions on Tiamat's page, a lot of those assertions are unsupported by evidence. I have already mentioned Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament - which is a work of actual scholarship and not pop non-fiction - where she is not once referred to as a dragon or dragon-like monster. The Enuma Eliš does ascribe animal-like physical qualities, but her form may also be mutable, as she is also described as the primordial salt water ocean.

There was some draconic iconography that was thought to be Tiamat, which has now been debunked or critically questioned by scholarship.

Some people once thought that this dragon at the feet of Marduk (pictured below) was Tiamat.

However this dragon is actually Mušḫuššu, a sacred symbol of Marduk.

Then there is the picture below, which is on Tiamat's Wikipedia page.

Although this image is commonly associated with Tiamat vs. Marduk, we actually don't know if it is either Tiamat or Marduk. Here is a museum, for example, talking about the figure on the left as Anzu.

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After skimming it, I'm adding,

Laursen, S.T. (2020). Dilmun boats on seals, horned figureheads, and the serpent/dragon slaying myth, c 2050-1500 BC. Arabian Archaeology and Epigraphy, 32 (S1), 301-312.

to my stack of things to go through at some point (along with seeing where it's references go and what else references them). Here's an excerpt:



The author is Curator of Moesgaard Museum whith a Ph.D. in Prehistoric Archaeolgy and dr.phil. in Archaeology.

Cadence said:

My hypothesis is that there is literally only one readily findable dragon that fits any of these conditions.

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That may be because our game-notions of Law vs Chaos likely came from Michael Moorcock, writing in the 60s and 70s, not from mythology.

Umbran said:

That may be because our game-notions of Law vs Chaos likely came from Michael Moorcock, writing in the 60s and 70s, not from mythology.

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I would totally believe there wouldn't be opposites in that way. The term chaos does show up in some of the myth books of the time period. (What were Moorcock's inspirations in this regard?) (Edits: Or Poul Anderson's influences I guess).

Cadence said:

I would totally believe there wouldn't be opposites in that way. The term chaos does show up in some of the myth books of the time period.

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In my own study of mythology, "chaos" is most often referenced as the void before the creation of the world.

Cadence said:

(What were Moorcock's inspirations in this regard?)

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As I understand it, mostly Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions, published in 1961, in which Law is basically human civilization, and Chaos is the Fae and wilderness pressing against same.

Moorcock didn't take Anderson's concepts directly, though.