So what can 4e learn from 5e?

Usually we brainstorm the other way around: in what way can our 5e games profit from innovations in 4e. As 4e is less commonly played (and is arguably more tightly designed), the question what 4e can take from later games like 5e (and perhaps later cousins like Pathfinder 2e or 13th Age) is less frequently asked.

One thing I regularly use for buffs and debuffs in 4e now is 5e's Advantage/Disadvantage system, for example. It's really handy and immerses players more because they get to roll themselves, instead of me applying a purely numerical bonus or malus.

I've also used 13th Age's escalation dice all the time.

How about you guys?

4E already has in some places the the "Advantage" mechanic. For example the Avenger uses it. It is just more rare to be special. Also a problem in 5E is that its used too often and dont feel special. I agree that in certain places it could be used though.


Simplified XP tables:

Some things which can be simplified directly (without changing it mechanically) is how XP works (and slightly even simplify encounter building). I did it here (look at the first 2 points):


This is partially inspired by Pathfinder 2, but in the end its the same math as before just showed slightly diferent


Escalation dice vs Burst
I like the escalation dice, but not for "speeding up the game" as some people often suggest, but because it can solve the problem of "Everyone just bursts on turn 1". If that is a problem with your group, you can add the Escalation dice, but you would need to increase the enemies defenses by 2 in exchange, else encounters become too easy (and you have again a problem which can lead to a bit of frustration). If this is not a problem I would not add it, since it just adds another small modifier to track.


You can also try to solve this problem in different ways:

- Mix Minions with normal enemies without telling the players which one are which, this way they dont want to first burst a minion

- Have enemies with clearly strong and weak defenses, this way players might want to find out first what these are (by attacking) before trying to burst.

- Have (sometimes) in combats have more enemies join after 1 or 2 rounds. (Especially with minions as above). This way players might want to wait with using best attacks a bit.

- The above also works well with lurkers which are in the beginning just not visible.


Simplifying modifier stacking

This is motivated by 5E and Pathfinder2E a bit. It is something I have not tried myself now (need to calculate the effects), but which I would like to try is the following:

- Combat advantage stacks now 2 times

- Modifier to attacks vs an enemy, as well as modifiers reducing an enemies defense, get transformed into Combat Advantage if their value is 3 or less.

- The same the opposite, bonus to defense or malus to attack grant a "combat disadvantage" which cancels completly combat advantage (not 5E style), so if you have 3 times combat advantage and 1 "combat disadvantage" you just have 2 times combat advantage (which stacks)

- Any Effect which gives +4 or more to attack (or -4 or less to defense) gives "SUPER ADVANTAGE", which is the 5E advantage.

- Similarly you have SUPER DISADVANTAGE for the opposite

- Super advantage does not stack, but cancels clearly (not 5E style). The only thing it stacks is with 4E effects which already give the same.


The advantage of this system is to have like 5E (and pathfinder 2) a lower maximum of possible stacking things which you have to look at. This makes combat potentially easier and faster. Also you never have situations where you cant miss.

Tigris said:

Escalation dice vs Burst
I like the escalation dice, but not for "speeding up the game" as some people often suggest, but because it can solve the problem of "Everyone just bursts on turn 1". If that is a problem with your group, you can add the Escalation dice, but you would need to increase the enemies defenses by 2 in exchange, else encounters become too easy (and you have again a problem which can lead to a bit of frustration). If this is not a problem I would not add it, since it just adds another small modifier to track.

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To be fair, one of the common problems listed with 4e is that monsters are a little too tough, turning fights into slogs. The increased accuracy from the escalation die could help with that.

Staffan said:

To be fair, one of the common problems listed with 4e is that monsters are a little too tough, turning fights into slogs. The increased accuracy from the escalation die could help with that.

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Not really because what GMs make when encounter become too easy is to add just more monsters. This happened specifically After PHB2 when the expertise feats and the improved defense feats were released, and lead to MonsterManual3 math, which decreased monster health (after level 11) and increased their damage. You cant just make encounters easier.


If you have problems with combats taking too long, there are other solutions:

- Use, like the Dungeon Masters Guide suggests, Traps and dangerous terrain (or negative damaging auras etc.) as part of your encounter budget. It deals damage to players without needing more HP to be killed

- Play more aggressive with the monsters, take opportunity attacks, to attack squishies

- Use more High Damage enemies like artilery (and at most 1 soldier).

- Let enemies flee/give up when there is no point anymore for fighting

- Make sure players are optimized for damage (and not or defense).


The Escalation dice does not make combats faster per se. 13th age specifically has a lower hit chance to include the dice. You cant just make combats easier, because else you just need to add more enemies to balance it. I know on the surface the escalation dice sounds like a way to make combats faster, but it is really not. It is a way against Turn 1 burst.

Not much. Tone down the off-turn actions. Quicker combat. That’s about it, really.

Tigris said:

Escalation dice vs Burst
I like the escalation dice, but not for "speeding up the game" as some people often suggest, but because it can solve the problem of "Everyone just bursts on turn 1". If that is a problem with your group, you can add the Escalation dice, but you would need to increase the enemies defenses by 2 in exchange, else encounters become too easy (and you have again a problem which can lead to a bit of frustration). If this is not a problem I would not add it, since it just adds another small modifier to track.

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Would escalation dice have any effect on DCs?
Otherwise it wouldn't incentivize much for casters

Distracted DM said:

Would escalation dice have any effect on DCs?
Otherwise it wouldn't incentivize much for casters

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Spells all use attack rolls in 4E.

(except for the late-edition revised version of Magic Missile, which got switched back to auto-hit for nostalgia reasons)

Kariotis said:

Usually we brainstorm the other way around: in what way can our 5e games profit from innovations in 4e. As 4e is less commonly played (and is arguably more tightly designed), the question what 4e can take from later games like 5e (and perhaps later cousins like Pathfinder 2e or 13th Age) is less frequently asked.

One thing I regularly use for buffs and debuffs in 4e now is 5e's Advantage/Disadvantage system, for example. It's really handy and immerses players more because they get to roll themselves, instead of me applying a purely numerical bonus or malus.

I've also used 13th Age's escalation dice all the time.

How about you guys?

Click to expand...

I'd say less feats, but more impactful ones. Chosing a feat is just a lot of options to go through for a tiny advantage.

overgeeked said:

Not much. Tone down the off-turn actions. Quicker combat. That’s about it, really.

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Yeah I think you should only be able to know two reactions at a time: opportunity attack, plus one from your class. Having multiple off-turn options on one character is too much of a distraction IMO. And for interrupts, it should be only 1 per character.

Undrave said:

I'd say less feats, but more impactful ones. Chosing a feat is just a lot of options to go through for a tiny advantage.

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I’d revise to add this. Way too many tiny, pointless feats in 4E.

4E gives many people the impression that it's a straight jacket. But you can actually be much looser with it once you understand the basic system math. So I'll say EMPOWERMENT!