I've been gaming for thirty years. Maybe it's time to hang it up. OR On Simulations and Storytellers.

aco175

Legend
Do you have kids? Mine took up the game around age 10 and it reinvigorated my DM style. I thought about volunteering at the local middle/high school for new players, but my daughter who does not play still goes there and it would be weird for her or embarrassing.

You could take up golf with your time. It is a great way to enjoy the outdoors(ish) and work on something you will never master, like DMing. Although when Alice Cooper quite drugs and took up golf and says that he is not sure which is more addicting or expensive.
 

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GuardianLurker

Adventurer
I think many "Forever GMs" have a "Crisis of Faith" at one point or another. I know I have. Two, in fact. A Major one in my early 30s, and a minor one more recently. Obviously, I recovered and continue GMing.

So first, yes, do take a break, recharge, but allow yourself to come back.Play some simulation/survival games, like Factorio or Valheim. If its worldbuilding you need to do, just let it happen, and don't worry about whether you'll use it directly or not. (I'm using a campaign world that had been sitting unused for 30 years for my current campaign. I've re-used parts of other unused worlds elsewhere.)

And it can still happen. So don't give up.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
That sucks. Yeah, definitely take a break. Nothing wrong with that.

If you come back, check out the OSR scene. There's a lot of ready players there, most of whom are looking for exactly that kind of game. Trouble is, most gaming these days is far, far easier to accomplish online. It's not as good as face-to-face, but that's where the vast majority of the players are.

Good luck.
 

Mannahnin

Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
I'd read about old school campaigns and West Marches games with numerous, proactive players, and thought that was the kind of game I wanted to have. Maybe one that would grow so big that I would have sub-DMs. I'd love to have parties competing with each other and scheming against each other; building kingdoms and fighting wars. I've dreamed of this since I was a boy, sitting on my grandmother's couch reading the Rules Cyclopedia 30 years ago, and building castles and rolling kingdom events in my notebooks.

I've always wanted to take the game "to the next level".
I tried running such an open table during the first few years of the pandemic too, and found that I wound up with mostly two steady parties in the same world. They did interact and compete a bit, which was a lot of fun, but in general I found that players mostly settle in to being available one regular night a week, and that's still a good player. Proactive ones available on flexible nights are definitely unicorns.

I also chatted with YouTube's "Professor Dungeon Master" for a while (nice fellow once you get past his New York abrasiveness, which often rubs middle Americans the wrong way; reminded me of one of my college professors). When I told him about my burnout, he just suggested I was making it too hard for myself. And, of course, he is right.

But for me, that's the point.

I'm a "simulationist". A hardcore simulationist. A style that, despite now having ever-more amazing computerized tools at our disposal for simulating our worlds (I'm a Claude addict), is quite out of style.

Prof DM comes from a different school. He likes simplicity; he only cares about what goes on at the table. It's a storytelling exercise to him, not a simulation.

But whenever I simplify like this... I get bored and lose interest. It's no longer real to me, or interesting. The world becomes flat and arbitrary. I don't want to be a "frustrated novelist" trying to see my players through a storyline, or dropping sequences of interactive scenes in front of them. I want to be the demiurge of an interactive world that grows, evolves and behaves separately from the PCs, but which they can influence and build on as well. (Similarly, I've never liked PLAYING RPGs - that is, being a player, not a DM. I can barely get through an entire session without growing bored, unless I know the DM is from the same "school" as me, and is trying just as hard to simulate his world. To this day, I've only played with one other DM like this, and that was over two decades ago now.)
I think my style is somewhere in between you and PDM. I don't want to do the work of going full simulationist, but I do like making the game LOOK that way to the players, using a combination of SOME additional prep work and filling out the map, combined with procedural and random content generation tools.

This way the game is more interesting to me, having to adapt to surprises both the players and my own tools throw at me, rather than working from a scripted sequence. And I find that this approach, while requiring some prep, also doesn't overwhelm me with prep, while also keeping me from being bored.

Whether you modify your approach or no, I wish you luck. I suspect the burnout will fade with time and the desire to run will grow. Looking online is often a good way to find reliable and enthusiastic players, including for less-popular RPGs and styles of play.
 

I recently cancelled my campaign. I was sick of the cat-herding, trying to get my bare minimum of players (3) to show up for a once a week game, that, due to everyone's schedule conflicts, seemed to have dwindled to once a month at best. While I'd advertised in game stores around the metro and got a fair number of responses, it always seemed that not enough people were available on any given Sunday to make it happen. In addition, I'd just lost my two core players - one had decided to take an extended break, and the other had just taken a multi-month assignment overseas.

But my frustration speaks to something larger than this.

A few months ago, I went to DaveCon. Now, if you're interested in very old-school gaming and live in the upper midwest, I highly recommend making the trip and meeting a bunch of the old grognards who have been there since the beginning. I played Braunstein with Dave Wesley; I played Dungeon! with Dave Megarry; I played in a 1st edition AD&D tournament. I also chatted with YouTube's "Professor Dungeon Master" for a while (nice fellow once you get past his New York abrasiveness, which often rubs middle Americans the wrong way; reminded me of one of my college professors). When I told him about my burnout, he just suggested I was making it too hard for myself. And, of course, he is right.

But for me, that's the point.

I'm a "simulationist". A hardcore simulationist. A style that, despite now having ever-more amazing computerized tools at our disposal for simulating our worlds (I'm a Claude addict), is quite out of style.

Prof DM comes from a different school. He likes simplicity; he only cares about what goes on at the table. It's a storytelling exercise to him, not a simulation.

But whenever I simplify like this... I get bored and lose interest. It's no longer real to me, or interesting. The world becomes flat and arbitrary. I don't want to be a "frustrated novelist" trying to see my players through a storyline, or dropping sequences of interactive scenes in front of them. I want to be the demiurge of an interactive world that grows, evolves and behaves separately from the PCs, but which they can influence and build on as well. (Similarly, I've never liked PLAYING RPGs - that is, being a player, not a DM. I can barely get through an entire session without growing bored, unless I know the DM is from the same "school" as me, and is trying just as hard to simulate his world. To this day, I've only played with one other DM like this, and that was over two decades ago now.)

I'd read about old school campaigns and West Marches games with numerous, proactive players, and thought that was the kind of game I wanted to have. Maybe one that would grow so big that I would have sub-DMs. I'd love to have parties competing with each other and scheming against each other; building kingdoms and fighting wars. I've dreamed of this since I was a boy, sitting on my grandmother's couch reading the Rules Cyclopedia 30 years ago, and building castles and rolling kingdom events in my notebooks.

I've always wanted to take the game "to the next level".

But now I'm 42, and after more than a quarter century of DMing (admittedly with a hiatus from 2005 to 2019), I just don't think that's ever going to be possible. It doesn't seem to be what the hobby has become or wants to be. Two weeks ago I found myself sorting lists of spells into a database, and suddenly realized, "you're never going to use any of this. Nothing in here will ever hit the table. You never get to that point, and even if you did, it might impact one or two of your players a handful of times."

So that was it. I cancelled my campaign. I put up my books. I walked away... and started thinking about better uses for my time. Reading my endless reading list. Writing those books I've always said I wanted to. Trading options. Getting advanced certifications in my field.

Yet I have a feeling this cycle will repeat. My D&D manuals will sit on the shelf taunting me and tempting me. One day again, they will call out to me, and I won't be able to resist... and I'll wake up a few months later with a hexographer map and 20 Excel files open on my computer, wondering why the heck I was trying to calculate how many goblins lived per square mile in a kingdom that was 500 miles from where I'd ran the last session and my PCs had no intention of going to...
What are you doing in my head?!?

I've been in a similar boat, having played with the same group of players for 40-some years, and I've realized they want a different style of game than I do at this point.

We all gave up on 5e a little while ago, and moved back to B/X and OSE Advanced. I'm running (or trying to run) exclusively OSE Advanced games now, and am looking for that more simulationist, deeper world interaction, simpler characters while still being able to reach outside the character sheet. I've had several campaigns up and running, but was only able to get 1 or 2 players for each one. That didn't stop me from researching, collecting worlds, deities, tons and tons of PDFs for inspiration, and continue to try to work toward that same-sounding sandbox, open world, evolving/developing story out of the gameplay, and transitioning into realm play, with henchmen going out on "lower level" adventures while the higher level characters are either managing their kingdoms or handling the "big stuff".

BUT, I think I'm just going to have to temper my expectations, and give up on the dream, because it doesn't seem like anyone is interested. That won't, however, stop my from writing, thinking, tweaking, and maybe even solo-adventuring to test stuff out in the meantime. I'm just not going to push it. And I still try to interact with, and read other people's experiences with OSE and old-style games, for ideas and for things for me to consider.

So, that's all to say you're not alone in your position, and taking a break to focus on other stuff can't hurt. Though I did at one point sell off my entire 1e through 3e collection of RPG books, Dragon Mags, and other assorted materials, which I still regret, and have spent a lot of time re-collecting things. So shelve it, but never get rid of it. The hook will always be there and pull you back :D
 


innerdude

Legend
I don't want to be a "frustrated novelist" trying to see my players through a storyline, or dropping sequences of interactive scenes in front of them. I want to be the demiurge of an interactive world that grows, evolves and behaves separately from the PCs, but which they can influence and build on as well.

First off, the sentence you've expressed here is an oxymoron, a paradoxical state.

The only reason to create and maintain a "continuous," "growing and evolving," "fully realized living world" is to involve PCs in the goings on within it. But 95% of the time those things are only made concerns of the PCs because the GM makes it so.

"Living world" games are paradoxically heavily GM-driven and GM-enforced, and "the story" (such as arises) only exists on the canvas upon which the GM places it. You say you don't want to "just tell stories," but really what are you doing? You're just constructing your own scenes and fictional character motivations to have your players pull "story levers" to make things run.

Oh sure, the PCs can affect the outcome a bit here and there, but you've already given away the secret up front---you're the real storyteller, because the "living world" is vastly more important than any story arriving from the interaction of the PCs. The PCs---and participation in the game as whole---only exist as a means to pursue the world building extrapolation that appeals to you. You admit you dislike being a player for the very same reason---you have no control over the worldbuilding and extrapolation. Without this, RPGs are boring and unfulfilling to you. The fun on your side can only be had in the way you want it.

And to be clear, I have no problem with this whatsoever. It's totally cool and groovy. Just don't lie to yourself about it. Be honest with yourself about your own motivations. Don't lie to your players and tell them they'll get to experience a "deeply collaborative, character-centric experience" playing with you as a GM.

And interestingly, this particular problem is going to remain with you regardless of choice of rules/mechanical system. You've got a huge range of traditional, GM driven games, from as simple as Risus or Tiny d6, all the way up to GURPS and beyond. Just pick one. It's pretty much all the same from the GM side, other than level of effort to maintain the "appearance of neutrality." If the appearance of neutrality in decision-making is important to you, go to GURPS. It makes it much easier, since just about everything is mechanically outlined for you. There's probably a chart, somewhere in a GURPS rulebook, for anything you can imagine.

Secondly, it sounds like the "simulationism" you crave beyond worldbuilding is more focused on setting up tactically stimulating combat exercises that adhere to less abstract, more concrete mechanical inputs+outputs. Again, there's lots of very good "simulationist" rules that will give you this. GURPS and Mythras immediately come to mind, but there are more.

Basically I'm saying, if this is REALLY your preference, then don't shy away from it, double down on it. I personally am about as far on the opposite end of the spectrum from your preferred playstyle as can be imagined, but believe me, there are players out there for you. Find players that are willing to go down that path with you.
 

Aldarc

Legend
Secondly, it sounds like the "simulationism" you crave beyond worldbuilding is more focused on setting up tactically stimulating combat exercises that adhere to less abstract, more concrete mechanical inputs+outputs. Again, there's lots of very good "simulationist" rules that will give you this. GURPS and Mythras immediately come to mind, but there are more.
If I wanted to lean heavier into simulationism, D&D would probably not be in my Top 5 choices for game systems. It's generally more on the gamism side of things. D&D, on the whole, also rarely has good mechanical support for creating "living worlds" either. 😅

As you say, I would likely look into more simulation-heavy games that have ardent, active fanbases out there: e.g., Mythras/RuneQuest, GURPS, Rolemaster, or even Hârnmaster. (Also Traveller, but that's on the sci-fi end of things.)
 

aramis erak

Legend
The desire for a "living world" sensation is incompatible with hard core simulationism.

You only get that from a more narrative approach, because if you try to simulate it, you need a boardgame mode as well. Pushing into the boardgame elements often snaps people out of RP, and in other cases, renders their PCs moot for a major element of the game.

If, indeed, you're looking for the crowd that can handle both modes, and stay in sim mode, you're going to most likely need to play online, because there are not enough players doing that style these days to be liable to find them in any singular city.
 

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