D&D 4E Let's Talk About 4E On Its Own Terms [+]

I can't explain how much I love this edition with words that have not been said in this thread.
Unfortunately I had a group that didn't appreciate it for very long, got only the first few books and didn't spend too much time tweaking it, nor I has a very good DM back in those days as he kept playing like old D&D and didn't balance encounters correctly.

This been said I want to pick it up again with my current group, but I'd ask you what should I change to make it run smoothly?
I used to play with PHB 1, DMG 1 and MM 1 only. I purchased and read several other books, but never got to use them on the field.
Do I cut monster HP?
Do I have to change other things?
A few pointers would go a long way. Thank you in advance.

Nobby Nobbs said:

I can't explain how much I love this edition with words that have not been said in this thread.
Unfortunately I had a group that didn't appreciate it for very long, got only the first few books and didn't spend too much time tweaking it, nor I has a very good DM back in those days as he kept playing like old D&D and didn't balance encounters correctly.

This been said I want to pick it up again with my current group, but I'd ask you what should I change to make it run smoothly?
I used to play with PHB 1, DMG 1 and MM 1 only. I purchased and read several other books, but never got to use them on the field.
Do I cut monster HP?
Do I have to change other things?
A few pointers would go a long way. Thank you in advance.

Click to expand...

It's my understanding you'll want to use monsters from MM3, Monster Vault, and Monster Vault: Threats to Nentir Vale, as those books have patched issues with monster math from MM1.

Composer99 said:

It's my understanding you'll want to use monsters from MM3, Monster Vault, and Monster Vault: Threats to Nentir Vale, as those books have patched issues with monster math from MM1.

Click to expand...

That's the big one that most people recommend, though it matters less at low levels. If you want to use an old monster and adjust the math, just use MM3 on a business card, and you can get a mostly fixed monster in minutes. That said, they also did change the kinds of powers they gave, largely removing ones that involved significant healing, so I'd recommend generally dropping or replacing powers like that on older monsters if you want to reuse them.

And back in the day, it seemed to be common advice in some places that if you're using an official published adventure, you should cut like half the combat. I'm not sure if you need to cut that much, but some adventures, particularly older ones, have more than they really need. Like I ran Seekers of the Ashen Crown, and there's a bunch of optional encounters that literally only exist to give the party XP if they're not leveled up enough for where the book wants them. I just cut those entirely and used milestone leveling at the points where the book clearly wanted them leveled up, and I'd recommend doing the same. 4e combat is big and epic, which is great when used well, but feels like a waste of time if you're just want the party to deal with random pick pocketers or something. I'd also say that the official rate it wants you to level seemed a bit slow to me, but that probably varies by table. Don't be afraid to just use milestones or something if the rate from XP doesn't seem right for your group.

Another thing to think about is whether to use inherent bonuses. 4e assumes a constant stream of specific kinds of treasure to keep players up with the math, and that may or may not work with your campaign and your group. If you or the group doesn't care about loot much or you want magic items to be more rare and special, there's an optional rule called inherent bonuses which just gives the PCs the numerical bonuses they'd normally get from equipment as they level. If your players are going to use the character builder (which I'd highly recommend tracking down, as the community has kept it up to date and functional with all player facing 4e content), there's a checkbox to have it just included in the character sheets that it produces.

@Nobby Nobbs

I agree with what others have said about monsters - the more recent maths is better for Paragon and Epic tiers (at Heroic you won't really notice).

I have used a lot of MM and MM2 monsters at those tiers, but generally lift the damage to MM3 standards, and give Brutes +2 to hit compared to what those books give them.

Some people think that the MM monsters have too much action denial/reduction (daze, stun, slow, weaken, intangibility, etc) but personally I didn't find that to be so cruel to players that I didn't use it. But if you have a more casual group, you'll want to look out for this too - to see alternative approaches, compare the MM to the MV Dracolich (the latter has a lot less stun).

Thank you all for the answers. Now I'll start picking an adventure to get some players hooked. Wish me luck

Nobby Nobbs said:

I can't explain how much I love this edition with words that have not been said in this thread.
Unfortunately I had a group that didn't appreciate it for very long, got only the first few books and didn't spend too much time tweaking it, nor I has a very good DM back in those days as he kept playing like old D&D and didn't balance encounters correctly.

This been said I want to pick it up again with my current group, but I'd ask you what should I change to make it run smoothly?
I used to play with PHB 1, DMG 1 and MM 1 only. I purchased and read several other books, but never got to use them on the field.
Do I cut monster HP?
Do I have to change other things?
A few pointers would go a long way. Thank you in advance.

Click to expand...

So here's my experience...

I started running 4E a few months ago with a group of players who joined the hobby during 5e (or their parents who returned to D&D during 5e after leaving during 2nd edition). I had run a few campaigns of 5e with them, one short Savage Worlds, and one short sample of Gamma World (7th edition - with the collectible cards).

We're having a good time. I am not cutting monster HP. I'm using the hard copies of the books (purchased on the used market), so I'm not incorporating any errata. I'm using monsters from anywhere I can get them.
The players are being challenged - but not overly so. They aren't tactical masterminds, but they're having fun.

It's still a very playable game. The 17 year-old in the group commented "this is like D&D in the future." Everyone involved thinks of it as an evolution of 5e.

It was supposed to be the D&D of the future, instead we got 5e and whatever is the name of the next version: Next, One, 5.5 or 6th.

I enjoyed a lot the tactical options of 4e: push, slide, playing on a grid, using miniatures, and so on.

Our current DM wants to play 2nd edition AD&D now, because... nostalgia I guess.
I want instead to run a 4e adventure (if not a whole campaign), time to get diplomatic and win this discussion

I will say that if Eberron is a setting that appeals to you and the group, there's a level 1 starter adventure in the 4e Eberron book that I rather liked. It's a good overall introduction to the setting and to 4e in general. I'd recommend being looser about what skills are allowed in the skill challenge (pretty much everyone loosened up on that over time, including WotC themselves), and unless the idea really appeals to you, replace the fights with random nobodies that can happen with a failed check in that challenge with just taking away a healing surge. But otherwise, it's solid stuff.

I will however say, as much as I like 4e, Eberron is best played in 3e. So much neat stuff was lost in the transition. Some of it was busted, mind you (yeah, I haven't forgotten you, Planar Shepherd), but expanding the abilities of Dragonmarks, Warforged, and Shifters just isn't a thing in 4e. Nor has the Artificer ever been the same (YMMV on how bad a thing that is).

I'm prepping Madness at Gardmore Abbey for the next adventure. I'm getting a Deck of Many Things to use as a prop. These guys are gonna love it.