D&D 1E AD&D1e Initiative woes - how to interpret Acrobat-Thief's Evasion?
- Thread starter Quickleaf
- Start date
Voadam
Legend
1e initiative for the basics you look to the 1e PH page 104 and the 1e DMG page 62:
PH page 104:
INITIATIVE
The initiative factor affects who can do what and when during the course of an
encounter of any sort. Surprise, already covered heretofore, obviates the need
for initiative checks, as the surprising party has complete freedom of action for
a time. However, surprise eventually wanes, and then, just as in other
circumstances, the relative weight of action must be determined. Initiative allows
one group, the party or the monster(s), to begin some course of action prior to
the other group.
Actions affected by initiative are many and include slamming a door, fleeing,
moving to grapple or melee, a call for a truce or surrender, firing wands,
discharging missiles, beginning a spell, and so on.
The initiative check is typically made with 2 six-sided dice, 1d6 for the party,
and another of a different size or color for the creatures encountered. This
check is made each round of play where first action is a factor. Because a
round is a full minute long, dexterity seldom is a factor in the determination of
which side acts first. However, if one group is slowed or hasted, or one or more
members of the group are, the initiative will always go to the non-slowed or
hasted side. In most other cases, the group with the higher die score will always
act first. For effects of initiative in fighting, see COMBAT hereafter.
PH page 105 adds:
First Strike:
The 1 minute melee round assumes much activity — rushes, retreats, feints,
parries, checks, and so on. Once during this period each combatant has the
opportunity to get a real blow in. Usually this is indicated by initiative, but
sometimes other circumstances will prevail. High level fighters get multiple blows
per round, so they will usually strike first and last in a round. Slowed creatures
always strike last. Hasted/speeded creatures strike first. A solid formation of
creatures with long weapons will strike opponents with shorter weapons first, a
rushing opponent will be struck first by a pole arm/spear set in its path. Your
DM will adjudicate such matters with common sense. When important single
combats occur, then dexterities and weapons factors will be used to determine
the order and number of strikes in a round.
1e DMG page 62:
Initiative:
Surprise gives initiative to the non- or less-surprised party. It is otherwise
determined when an encounter occurs and at the start of each combat round. It
indicates which of the two parties will act/react. Again, a d6 is rolled, and the
scores for the two parties are compared. (It is recommended that such initiative
rolls be made openly unless there is some reason to hide that of the
encountered monster party — such as special bonuses which would be
unknown to the player characters involved.) The higher of the two rolls is said to
possess the initiative for that melee round. (While it is not accurate to roll one
die for all individuals comprising each party, it is a convenient and necessary
expedient. Separate rolls could be made for each member of two small groups,
for instance, but what happens to this simple, brief determination if one party
consists of 9 characters and 6 henchmen and the other of 7 giants and 19 dire
wolves, let us say?) Possession of initiative allows the individuals to take action
or reaction as desired according to the foregoing list of alternatives, and as
detailed hereafter. The dexterity or speed of individuals or weapons is not
considered in the 1 minute round except as hereafter noted.
Initiative For Creatures With Multiple Attack Routines: When one or
more creatures involved in combat are permitted to use their attack routines
twice or more often during the round, then the following initiative determinants
are employed. When the attack routine may be used twice, then allow the
side with this advantage to attack FIRST and LAST with those members of its
group who have this advantage. If it is possessed by both parties, the initiative
roll determines which group strikes FIRST and THIRD, which group strikes
SECOND and LAST. If one or both groups have members allowed only one
attack routine, it will always fall in the middle of the other attacks, the order
determined by dicing for initiative, when necessary. If one party has the
ability to employ its attack routines thrice, then the other party dices for
initiative to see if it, or the multi-routine group, strikes first in the mid-point of
the round. Extrapolate for routines which occur four or more times in a round
by following the method above. Note that a routine is the attack or attacks
usual to the creature concerned, i.e. a weapon (or weapons) for a character,
a claw/claw/bite routine for a bear (with incidental damage assessed as it
occurs — the hug, for example). A 12th level fighter is allowed attack routines
twice in every odd numbered melee round, for example, and this moves up to
three per round if a haste spell is cast upon the fighter. Damage from
successful attacks is assessed when the “to hit” score is made and damage
determined, the creature so taking damage having to survive it in order to
follow its attack routine.
Ties: It will often occur that initiative determination results in a tie. This merely
indicates that each party has equal chances for acting and that attacks occur
simultaneously. In cases of equal initiative score, damage accrues to both
groups regardless of what is inflicted.
Also page 65 of the DMG has a note on spellcasting in melee
SPELL CASTING DURING MELEE
These functions are fully detailed in PLAYERS HANDBOOK. Their
commencement is dictated by initiative determination as with other attack forms,
but their culmination is subject to the stated casting time. Both commencement
and/or completion can occur simultaneously with missile discharge, magical
device attacks, and/or turning undead. Being struck by something during
casting will spoil the spell.
2. Attacks directed at spell casters will come on that segment of the round
shown on the opponent’s or on their own side’s initiative die, whichever is
applicable. (If the spell caster’s side won the initiative with a roll of 5, the
attack must come then, not on the opponent’s losing roll of 4 or less.) Thus,
all such attacks will occur on the 1st-6th segments of the round.
Then there are a couple more DMG complications explained on page 66-67:
Melee At End of Charge: Initiative is NOT checked at the end of charge
movement. The opponent with the longer weapon/reach attacks first. Charging
creatures gain +2 on their “to hit” dice if they survive any non-charging or
charging opponent attacks which occur first. Weapon length and first strike are
detailed under Strike Blows.
Only one charge move can be made each turn; thus an interval of 9 rounds
must take place before a second charge movement can be made.
Set Weapons Against Possible Opponent Charge:
Setting weapons is simply a matter of bracing such piercing weapons as spears,
spiked pole arms, forks, glaives, etc. so as to have the butt of the shaft braced
against an unyielding surface. The effect of such a weapon upon a charging (or
leaping, pouncing, falling, or otherwise onrushing) opponent is to cause such
opponent to impale itself and take double normal damage if a hit is so scored.
Example: Character A sets her spear with its butt firmly braced upon the floor
just as a giant toad hops at her (attacking); if the spear impales the creature, it
will score double indicated damage (d8 × 2). Note that in this case initiative is
automatically given to the set spear as it will obviously take effect prior to any
attack routine of the toad, and that two dice are not rolled, but the result of the
d8 roll is multiplied by 2.
Strike Blows:
As previously stated, initiative is the key factor as to which side strikes blows
first each melee round. This is modified by creatures with multiple attack
routines, whether by natural or magical ability (such as haste). It is also
modified by weapon length when one opponent is charging (or otherwise
closing precipitously) into melee contact.
Simultaneous Initiative: When opponents in melee have tied for initiative,
blows (attack routines included) occur simultaneously, except when both
opponents are using weapons. Each weapon has a speed factor, and in the
case of otherwise simultaneous blows, the opponent with the weapon which has
the lower speed factor will strike first. Thus, a blow from a fist occurs before a
blow with a dagger (1 to 2), a dagger before a short sword (2 to 3), a short
sword prior to a hammer (3 to 4), and so on.
Weapon Speed Factor: This number is indicative of the wieldiness of any
particular weapon, how long it takes to ready the weapon against an
opponent, or how long it takes to recover and move it in its attack mode. A
pike, for example, is a 13, as it must be lowered, grasped, and then held/thrust
firmly. Such a weapon is not usable in dungeon settings, or anywhere else
without masses of other pikes to support it. In the latter case, an opponent
surviving the first attack from the bearer of the pike will likely be able to strike
several times before recovery of the pike for a second thrust. This is further
detailed below. A two-handed sword, with a 10 speed factor, likewise requires
a lengthy readying time and recovery period after its attack due to its size and
weight.
When weapon speed factor is the determinant of which opponent strikes first
in a melee round, there is a chance that one opponent will be entitled to
multiple attacks. Compare the score of the lower-factored weapon with that of
the higher. If the difference is at least twice the factor of the lower, or 5 or
more factors in any case, the opponent with the lower factored weapon is
entitled to 2 attacks before the opponent with the higher weapon factor is
entitled to any attack whatsoever. If the difference is 10 or greater, the
opponent with the lower-factored weapon is entitled to 2 attacks before the
opponent is allowed to attack, and 1 further attack at the same time the
opponent with the higher-speed-factored weapon finally is allowed to attack.
Note that such speed factor considerations are not applicable when either
closing or charging to melee, but after an initial round of combat, or in cases
where closing/charging was not necessary, the speed factor considerations
are applicable.
Other Weapon Factor Determinants: The speed factor of a weapon
also determines when the weapon strikes during the course of the round with
respect to opponents who are engaged in activity other than striking blows.
Thus, suppose side A, which has achieved initiative (action) for the round, has
a magic-user engaged in casting a spell. Compare the speed factor of the
weapon with the number of segments which the spell will require to cast to
determine if the spell or the weapon will be cast/strike first, subtracting the
losing die roll on the initiative die roll from the weapon factor and treating
negative results as positive. Example: A sword with a factor of 5 (broad or
long) is being used by an opponent of a magic-user attempting to cast a
fireball spell (3 segment casting time). If the sword-wielding attacker was
represented by a losing initiative die roll of 1, the spell will be cast prior to
the sword’s blow. A 2 will indicate that the spell and the blow are completed
simultaneously. A 3-5 will indicate that the blow has a chance of striking (if a
successful “to hit” roll is made) before the spell is cast, arriving either as the
spell is begun or during the first segment of its casting. Suppose instead that
a dagger were being employed. It has a speed factor of only 2, so it will
strike prior to spell completion if the initiative roll which lost was 1-4 (the
adjusted segment indicator being 1, 0, 1, 2 respectively) and simultaneously
if the die score was a 5. If the weapon being employed was a two-handed
sword (or any other weapon with a speed factor of 10, or 9 for that matter)
there would be no chance for the reacting side to strike the spell caster prior
to completion of the fireball. Note that even though a spell takes but 1
segment to complete, this is 6 seconds, and during that period a reacting
attacker might be able to attack the magic-user or other spell caster prior to
actual completion of the spell! If combat is simultaneous, there is no
modification of the weapon speed factor.
There are also a few examples of combat with initiative.
1e PH page 105:
Example of Combat:
A party of 5 characters — a magic-user, a cleric, a thief, a human fighter,
and a dwarf fighter surprise an illusionist with 20 orcs. The opponents are 30’
distant, and the magic-user immediately begins casting a sleep spell. The
cleric also prepares to cast a spell, silence, 15’ radius. Meanwhile, the thief
darts to the rear of the party to attempt to hide in the shadows and attack
from behind when opportunity presents itself; the human fighter nocks an
arrow and shoots it at the illusionist; and the dwarf hurls an axe. The surprise
segment is over, and initiative is determined. The illusionist/orcs win initiative,
and while the former begins a spell of his own, the latter rush to attack,
hurling spears as they come. A spear hits the magic-user, so the sleep spell is
spoiled. The orcs are attacked by the fighters, the cleric casts his spell upon
the illusionist, and the magical silence both spoils his prismatic spray spell and
enhances the chances for the thief’s attack, for he is successfully slinking and
sliding around in the shadows. Thus, after surprise and 1 melee round, the
party has inflicted 2 hits upon the illusionist, spoiled his spell attack, and
felled one orc and wounded another. They have taken 3 spear hits and had
one of their spell attacks ruined.
Initiative is now checked for the second round. The illusionist/orcs again win
initiative and attack first, 5 orcs going after each fighter to grapple, 6 rushing
the magic-user, and 3 heading for the cleric. The fighters are pulled down, as is
the magic-user, but the cleric avoids their grasp. The illusionist begins casting
another spell, one which requires no verbal component; he does not hear the
thief behind him. It is now the party’s turn in the round. The cleric smites 1 of
the onrushing orcs and kills it, and the thief stabs the illusionist from behind with
his sword, killing him; the fighters and magic-user are held fast by orcs, so they
can do nothing. Round 2 is over.
The initiative roll in the third round goes to the party. The cleric kills another
orc, while the thief rushes at the orcs holding the nearest fighter. It is now the
orcs’ turn, and as their leader is dead and they still face 2 powerful opponents,
they will check morale. It is probable that they will kill the pinned characters
with dagger thrusts if their morale does not break, or that they will release the
pinned characters and run away if their morale is bad.
DMG page 71-72:
Example of Melee:
Party A (player characters) is composed of Aggro the Axe, a 4th level fighter;
Abner, a 5th level magic-user; Arkayn, a 4th level cleric; and Arlanni, a 2nd
level thief. They are hastening down a dungeon corridor in order to avoid an
encounter with a large group of goblins, whose territory they are now leaving.
It is a ten-foot wide corridor and they are moving with the cleric, fighter, and
thief in a line in front, followed closely by the magic-user. Suddenly they round
a bend and confront party B, who are earnestly engaged in squabbling over
some treasure. Party B is composed of Gutboy Barrelhouse, a 6th level dwarf
fighter; Balto, a 1st level monk; Blastum, a 4th level magic-user; and Barjin, a
4th/5th level half-elf fighter/magic-user.
The first thing the DM must do is determine if either party is surprised. He rolls a
d6 for party B (where the players can see it, since there are no secret modifiers)
and a 2 comes up. The leader for the players rolls and gets a 4 for party A.
Party B is surprised (since they rolled a 2), and will be inactive for 2 segments.
Next the DM checks distance, and finds that the parties are only 10’ apart —
sufficiently near to close and strike.
Party A immediately recognizes party B as a group of “evil marauders” they
were warned against and moves to attack. First, Arlanni the thief, who had her
sling ready (as the player had stated previous to the encounter), fires a shot at
Blastum, who is obviously a magic-user. A sling bullet gains +3 “to hit” vs. no
armor. Arlanni would usually need an 11 to hit, but now needs only an 8. She
rolls a 5, and misses.
Aggro the fighter rushes forward to attack the nearest opponent, who happens
to be Balto, the monk. Balto is wearing no armor, so Aggro needs a base 8 to
hit Balto. However, Aggro is using a +1 hand axe, and furthermore an axe is
+1 to hit vs. no armor, so Aggro’s adjusted amount needed to hit is only 6 (or,
alternately, the cumulative +2 could be added to whatever he rolls to improve
his chances of rolling an 8 or better). Aggro rolls a 14 and hits Balto, but only
1 point of damage is rolled, plus a 1 point bonus from the magic axe (2 points
total), and Balto can take 4.
Meanwhile, Abner and Arkayn have been preparing short (first level) spells. The
cleric shouts a command of “surrender!” at Gutboy Barrelhouse, but Gutboy is
6th level and thus gets a saving throw. Furthermore, he is a dwarf with a
constitution of 16, and thus saves at +4. He therefore needs a 10 or better to
save (instead of a 14). He rolls a 17 and saves easily. Unfortunately, he is
almost simultaneously hit by two magic missiles from Abner, the magic-user.
Against these there is no save, and Gutboy suffers 6 points of damage (from a
possible 4-10).
As party B is surprised for 2 segments, party A has a chance to hit in each
segment as if they were full rounds (this does not apply to spell use, of course).
In the second segment, Arlanni chooses to set down her crossbow and
unsheathe her sword. Aggro would normally get another chance to hit Balto,
who would be inactive for another segment, but Balto’s dexterity allows him a
+1 reaction adjustment, which means that he personally will be surprised for
one less segment than the rest of his party. So this segment he is up and on his
guard, and Aggro does not get another hit attempt this round. Arkayn the cleric
readies his mace as Abner steps back and begins to unroll a scroll for use next
round.
Now initiative dice are rolled, and party A’s score is lower, so party B gets to
react to the assault. Balto attacks Aggro (who is in AC 2) with his staff. He
needs a base 18 to hit, and the –7 armor class adjustment for sword vs. plate
mail and shield makes this a 20. He (the DM) rolls a 19 — almost, but not
quite! Gutboy Barrelhouse and Barjin the fighter/magic-user both attack
Arkayn. That cleric’s AC is only 5. Gutboy has +1 to hit due to strength, and his
hammer’s armor class adjustment vs. scale mail and shield is +1, so he needs a
9 or better to hit (11 before bonuses). He rolls a 12 and hits for 5 points of
damage (including 1 point of bonus damage from strength). Barjin, with a
sword, needs a 13 or better to hit Arkayn. He rolls a 13 exactly, and hits for 6
more points of damage. Arkayn is starting to have second thoughts about this
whole affair.
Meanwhile, Blastum has been preparing a shocking grasp spell, and now he
steps forward and touches (rolls a successful “to hit” die score) Arlanni the thief,
delivering 10 points of damage (1-8 + 4). There is no saving throw: Arlanni has
only 8 hit points, and dies.
On the left, Aggro again attacks Balto with his axe. He rolls a 12 and hits him
for 5 points. Balto only had two points left, so he is dead.
Arkayn chooses to attempt to hit Gutboy Barrelhouse. The dwarf is clad in splint
mail, but he is carrying a +2 shield, so his effective armor class is 1 (though his
AC type is 3). Arkayn needs a base 17 to hit AC 1, but using a mace vs. AC
type 3 gives him a +1 armor class adjustment, so he really only needs a 16 or
better. He rolls a 7 and misses.
During this time Abner has been reading a web spell from the scroll, and now it
takes effect. The web stretches from wall to wall and entangles Gutboy, Barjin,
Blastum (who was beginning spell preparations, though now they’re ruined and
the spell is lost), and the unfortunate Arkayn, who was too near not to get
caught. All attempt saving throws, but only Gutboy Barrelhouse makes his, and
thus is only partially entangled. However, even his 17 strength will not enable
him to escape the web in time to avoid being subsequently subdued or killed by
Aggro. The melee is effectively over: Arkayn can be helped out of the web by
his friends, while Barjin and Blastum are basically helpless to avoid whatever
the player characters have in mind concerning them.
As you can see, a large number of things can happen in each round of
melee, yet this whole fight took only two minutes of game time. Some melees
will last far longer. It may seem at first as if there is a tremendous number of
confusing variables that modify the action, but you’ll be surprised at how
quickly you’ll be able to conduct a complicated melee and routinely cover
every point. An experienced DM can do it with only an occasional reference
to the tables (though it is not recommended that you try this — wait until it
comes naturally). The main thing to remember is to do everything in an
orderly, step-by-step fashion. Deal with your players’ actions and reactions
one by one instead of all at once, or you will never be able to keep track of
what round it is, and who’s doing what when.
PH page 104:
INITIATIVE
The initiative factor affects who can do what and when during the course of an
encounter of any sort. Surprise, already covered heretofore, obviates the need
for initiative checks, as the surprising party has complete freedom of action for
a time. However, surprise eventually wanes, and then, just as in other
circumstances, the relative weight of action must be determined. Initiative allows
one group, the party or the monster(s), to begin some course of action prior to
the other group.
Actions affected by initiative are many and include slamming a door, fleeing,
moving to grapple or melee, a call for a truce or surrender, firing wands,
discharging missiles, beginning a spell, and so on.
The initiative check is typically made with 2 six-sided dice, 1d6 for the party,
and another of a different size or color for the creatures encountered. This
check is made each round of play where first action is a factor. Because a
round is a full minute long, dexterity seldom is a factor in the determination of
which side acts first. However, if one group is slowed or hasted, or one or more
members of the group are, the initiative will always go to the non-slowed or
hasted side. In most other cases, the group with the higher die score will always
act first. For effects of initiative in fighting, see COMBAT hereafter.
PH page 105 adds:
First Strike:
The 1 minute melee round assumes much activity — rushes, retreats, feints,
parries, checks, and so on. Once during this period each combatant has the
opportunity to get a real blow in. Usually this is indicated by initiative, but
sometimes other circumstances will prevail. High level fighters get multiple blows
per round, so they will usually strike first and last in a round. Slowed creatures
always strike last. Hasted/speeded creatures strike first. A solid formation of
creatures with long weapons will strike opponents with shorter weapons first, a
rushing opponent will be struck first by a pole arm/spear set in its path. Your
DM will adjudicate such matters with common sense. When important single
combats occur, then dexterities and weapons factors will be used to determine
the order and number of strikes in a round.
1e DMG page 62:
Initiative:
Surprise gives initiative to the non- or less-surprised party. It is otherwise
determined when an encounter occurs and at the start of each combat round. It
indicates which of the two parties will act/react. Again, a d6 is rolled, and the
scores for the two parties are compared. (It is recommended that such initiative
rolls be made openly unless there is some reason to hide that of the
encountered monster party — such as special bonuses which would be
unknown to the player characters involved.) The higher of the two rolls is said to
possess the initiative for that melee round. (While it is not accurate to roll one
die for all individuals comprising each party, it is a convenient and necessary
expedient. Separate rolls could be made for each member of two small groups,
for instance, but what happens to this simple, brief determination if one party
consists of 9 characters and 6 henchmen and the other of 7 giants and 19 dire
wolves, let us say?) Possession of initiative allows the individuals to take action
or reaction as desired according to the foregoing list of alternatives, and as
detailed hereafter. The dexterity or speed of individuals or weapons is not
considered in the 1 minute round except as hereafter noted.
Initiative For Creatures With Multiple Attack Routines: When one or
more creatures involved in combat are permitted to use their attack routines
twice or more often during the round, then the following initiative determinants
are employed. When the attack routine may be used twice, then allow the
side with this advantage to attack FIRST and LAST with those members of its
group who have this advantage. If it is possessed by both parties, the initiative
roll determines which group strikes FIRST and THIRD, which group strikes
SECOND and LAST. If one or both groups have members allowed only one
attack routine, it will always fall in the middle of the other attacks, the order
determined by dicing for initiative, when necessary. If one party has the
ability to employ its attack routines thrice, then the other party dices for
initiative to see if it, or the multi-routine group, strikes first in the mid-point of
the round. Extrapolate for routines which occur four or more times in a round
by following the method above. Note that a routine is the attack or attacks
usual to the creature concerned, i.e. a weapon (or weapons) for a character,
a claw/claw/bite routine for a bear (with incidental damage assessed as it
occurs — the hug, for example). A 12th level fighter is allowed attack routines
twice in every odd numbered melee round, for example, and this moves up to
three per round if a haste spell is cast upon the fighter. Damage from
successful attacks is assessed when the “to hit” score is made and damage
determined, the creature so taking damage having to survive it in order to
follow its attack routine.
Ties: It will often occur that initiative determination results in a tie. This merely
indicates that each party has equal chances for acting and that attacks occur
simultaneously. In cases of equal initiative score, damage accrues to both
groups regardless of what is inflicted.
Also page 65 of the DMG has a note on spellcasting in melee
SPELL CASTING DURING MELEE
These functions are fully detailed in PLAYERS HANDBOOK. Their
commencement is dictated by initiative determination as with other attack forms,
but their culmination is subject to the stated casting time. Both commencement
and/or completion can occur simultaneously with missile discharge, magical
device attacks, and/or turning undead. Being struck by something during
casting will spoil the spell.
2. Attacks directed at spell casters will come on that segment of the round
shown on the opponent’s or on their own side’s initiative die, whichever is
applicable. (If the spell caster’s side won the initiative with a roll of 5, the
attack must come then, not on the opponent’s losing roll of 4 or less.) Thus,
all such attacks will occur on the 1st-6th segments of the round.
Then there are a couple more DMG complications explained on page 66-67:
Melee At End of Charge: Initiative is NOT checked at the end of charge
movement. The opponent with the longer weapon/reach attacks first. Charging
creatures gain +2 on their “to hit” dice if they survive any non-charging or
charging opponent attacks which occur first. Weapon length and first strike are
detailed under Strike Blows.
Only one charge move can be made each turn; thus an interval of 9 rounds
must take place before a second charge movement can be made.
Set Weapons Against Possible Opponent Charge:
Setting weapons is simply a matter of bracing such piercing weapons as spears,
spiked pole arms, forks, glaives, etc. so as to have the butt of the shaft braced
against an unyielding surface. The effect of such a weapon upon a charging (or
leaping, pouncing, falling, or otherwise onrushing) opponent is to cause such
opponent to impale itself and take double normal damage if a hit is so scored.
Example: Character A sets her spear with its butt firmly braced upon the floor
just as a giant toad hops at her (attacking); if the spear impales the creature, it
will score double indicated damage (d8 × 2). Note that in this case initiative is
automatically given to the set spear as it will obviously take effect prior to any
attack routine of the toad, and that two dice are not rolled, but the result of the
d8 roll is multiplied by 2.
Strike Blows:
As previously stated, initiative is the key factor as to which side strikes blows
first each melee round. This is modified by creatures with multiple attack
routines, whether by natural or magical ability (such as haste). It is also
modified by weapon length when one opponent is charging (or otherwise
closing precipitously) into melee contact.
Simultaneous Initiative: When opponents in melee have tied for initiative,
blows (attack routines included) occur simultaneously, except when both
opponents are using weapons. Each weapon has a speed factor, and in the
case of otherwise simultaneous blows, the opponent with the weapon which has
the lower speed factor will strike first. Thus, a blow from a fist occurs before a
blow with a dagger (1 to 2), a dagger before a short sword (2 to 3), a short
sword prior to a hammer (3 to 4), and so on.
Weapon Speed Factor: This number is indicative of the wieldiness of any
particular weapon, how long it takes to ready the weapon against an
opponent, or how long it takes to recover and move it in its attack mode. A
pike, for example, is a 13, as it must be lowered, grasped, and then held/thrust
firmly. Such a weapon is not usable in dungeon settings, or anywhere else
without masses of other pikes to support it. In the latter case, an opponent
surviving the first attack from the bearer of the pike will likely be able to strike
several times before recovery of the pike for a second thrust. This is further
detailed below. A two-handed sword, with a 10 speed factor, likewise requires
a lengthy readying time and recovery period after its attack due to its size and
weight.
When weapon speed factor is the determinant of which opponent strikes first
in a melee round, there is a chance that one opponent will be entitled to
multiple attacks. Compare the score of the lower-factored weapon with that of
the higher. If the difference is at least twice the factor of the lower, or 5 or
more factors in any case, the opponent with the lower factored weapon is
entitled to 2 attacks before the opponent with the higher weapon factor is
entitled to any attack whatsoever. If the difference is 10 or greater, the
opponent with the lower-factored weapon is entitled to 2 attacks before the
opponent is allowed to attack, and 1 further attack at the same time the
opponent with the higher-speed-factored weapon finally is allowed to attack.
Note that such speed factor considerations are not applicable when either
closing or charging to melee, but after an initial round of combat, or in cases
where closing/charging was not necessary, the speed factor considerations
are applicable.
Other Weapon Factor Determinants: The speed factor of a weapon
also determines when the weapon strikes during the course of the round with
respect to opponents who are engaged in activity other than striking blows.
Thus, suppose side A, which has achieved initiative (action) for the round, has
a magic-user engaged in casting a spell. Compare the speed factor of the
weapon with the number of segments which the spell will require to cast to
determine if the spell or the weapon will be cast/strike first, subtracting the
losing die roll on the initiative die roll from the weapon factor and treating
negative results as positive. Example: A sword with a factor of 5 (broad or
long) is being used by an opponent of a magic-user attempting to cast a
fireball spell (3 segment casting time). If the sword-wielding attacker was
represented by a losing initiative die roll of 1, the spell will be cast prior to
the sword’s blow. A 2 will indicate that the spell and the blow are completed
simultaneously. A 3-5 will indicate that the blow has a chance of striking (if a
successful “to hit” roll is made) before the spell is cast, arriving either as the
spell is begun or during the first segment of its casting. Suppose instead that
a dagger were being employed. It has a speed factor of only 2, so it will
strike prior to spell completion if the initiative roll which lost was 1-4 (the
adjusted segment indicator being 1, 0, 1, 2 respectively) and simultaneously
if the die score was a 5. If the weapon being employed was a two-handed
sword (or any other weapon with a speed factor of 10, or 9 for that matter)
there would be no chance for the reacting side to strike the spell caster prior
to completion of the fireball. Note that even though a spell takes but 1
segment to complete, this is 6 seconds, and during that period a reacting
attacker might be able to attack the magic-user or other spell caster prior to
actual completion of the spell! If combat is simultaneous, there is no
modification of the weapon speed factor.
There are also a few examples of combat with initiative.
1e PH page 105:
Example of Combat:
A party of 5 characters — a magic-user, a cleric, a thief, a human fighter,
and a dwarf fighter surprise an illusionist with 20 orcs. The opponents are 30’
distant, and the magic-user immediately begins casting a sleep spell. The
cleric also prepares to cast a spell, silence, 15’ radius. Meanwhile, the thief
darts to the rear of the party to attempt to hide in the shadows and attack
from behind when opportunity presents itself; the human fighter nocks an
arrow and shoots it at the illusionist; and the dwarf hurls an axe. The surprise
segment is over, and initiative is determined. The illusionist/orcs win initiative,
and while the former begins a spell of his own, the latter rush to attack,
hurling spears as they come. A spear hits the magic-user, so the sleep spell is
spoiled. The orcs are attacked by the fighters, the cleric casts his spell upon
the illusionist, and the magical silence both spoils his prismatic spray spell and
enhances the chances for the thief’s attack, for he is successfully slinking and
sliding around in the shadows. Thus, after surprise and 1 melee round, the
party has inflicted 2 hits upon the illusionist, spoiled his spell attack, and
felled one orc and wounded another. They have taken 3 spear hits and had
one of their spell attacks ruined.
Initiative is now checked for the second round. The illusionist/orcs again win
initiative and attack first, 5 orcs going after each fighter to grapple, 6 rushing
the magic-user, and 3 heading for the cleric. The fighters are pulled down, as is
the magic-user, but the cleric avoids their grasp. The illusionist begins casting
another spell, one which requires no verbal component; he does not hear the
thief behind him. It is now the party’s turn in the round. The cleric smites 1 of
the onrushing orcs and kills it, and the thief stabs the illusionist from behind with
his sword, killing him; the fighters and magic-user are held fast by orcs, so they
can do nothing. Round 2 is over.
The initiative roll in the third round goes to the party. The cleric kills another
orc, while the thief rushes at the orcs holding the nearest fighter. It is now the
orcs’ turn, and as their leader is dead and they still face 2 powerful opponents,
they will check morale. It is probable that they will kill the pinned characters
with dagger thrusts if their morale does not break, or that they will release the
pinned characters and run away if their morale is bad.
DMG page 71-72:
Example of Melee:
Party A (player characters) is composed of Aggro the Axe, a 4th level fighter;
Abner, a 5th level magic-user; Arkayn, a 4th level cleric; and Arlanni, a 2nd
level thief. They are hastening down a dungeon corridor in order to avoid an
encounter with a large group of goblins, whose territory they are now leaving.
It is a ten-foot wide corridor and they are moving with the cleric, fighter, and
thief in a line in front, followed closely by the magic-user. Suddenly they round
a bend and confront party B, who are earnestly engaged in squabbling over
some treasure. Party B is composed of Gutboy Barrelhouse, a 6th level dwarf
fighter; Balto, a 1st level monk; Blastum, a 4th level magic-user; and Barjin, a
4th/5th level half-elf fighter/magic-user.
The first thing the DM must do is determine if either party is surprised. He rolls a
d6 for party B (where the players can see it, since there are no secret modifiers)
and a 2 comes up. The leader for the players rolls and gets a 4 for party A.
Party B is surprised (since they rolled a 2), and will be inactive for 2 segments.
Next the DM checks distance, and finds that the parties are only 10’ apart —
sufficiently near to close and strike.
Party A immediately recognizes party B as a group of “evil marauders” they
were warned against and moves to attack. First, Arlanni the thief, who had her
sling ready (as the player had stated previous to the encounter), fires a shot at
Blastum, who is obviously a magic-user. A sling bullet gains +3 “to hit” vs. no
armor. Arlanni would usually need an 11 to hit, but now needs only an 8. She
rolls a 5, and misses.
Aggro the fighter rushes forward to attack the nearest opponent, who happens
to be Balto, the monk. Balto is wearing no armor, so Aggro needs a base 8 to
hit Balto. However, Aggro is using a +1 hand axe, and furthermore an axe is
+1 to hit vs. no armor, so Aggro’s adjusted amount needed to hit is only 6 (or,
alternately, the cumulative +2 could be added to whatever he rolls to improve
his chances of rolling an 8 or better). Aggro rolls a 14 and hits Balto, but only
1 point of damage is rolled, plus a 1 point bonus from the magic axe (2 points
total), and Balto can take 4.
Meanwhile, Abner and Arkayn have been preparing short (first level) spells. The
cleric shouts a command of “surrender!” at Gutboy Barrelhouse, but Gutboy is
6th level and thus gets a saving throw. Furthermore, he is a dwarf with a
constitution of 16, and thus saves at +4. He therefore needs a 10 or better to
save (instead of a 14). He rolls a 17 and saves easily. Unfortunately, he is
almost simultaneously hit by two magic missiles from Abner, the magic-user.
Against these there is no save, and Gutboy suffers 6 points of damage (from a
possible 4-10).
As party B is surprised for 2 segments, party A has a chance to hit in each
segment as if they were full rounds (this does not apply to spell use, of course).
In the second segment, Arlanni chooses to set down her crossbow and
unsheathe her sword. Aggro would normally get another chance to hit Balto,
who would be inactive for another segment, but Balto’s dexterity allows him a
+1 reaction adjustment, which means that he personally will be surprised for
one less segment than the rest of his party. So this segment he is up and on his
guard, and Aggro does not get another hit attempt this round. Arkayn the cleric
readies his mace as Abner steps back and begins to unroll a scroll for use next
round.
Now initiative dice are rolled, and party A’s score is lower, so party B gets to
react to the assault. Balto attacks Aggro (who is in AC 2) with his staff. He
needs a base 18 to hit, and the –7 armor class adjustment for sword vs. plate
mail and shield makes this a 20. He (the DM) rolls a 19 — almost, but not
quite! Gutboy Barrelhouse and Barjin the fighter/magic-user both attack
Arkayn. That cleric’s AC is only 5. Gutboy has +1 to hit due to strength, and his
hammer’s armor class adjustment vs. scale mail and shield is +1, so he needs a
9 or better to hit (11 before bonuses). He rolls a 12 and hits for 5 points of
damage (including 1 point of bonus damage from strength). Barjin, with a
sword, needs a 13 or better to hit Arkayn. He rolls a 13 exactly, and hits for 6
more points of damage. Arkayn is starting to have second thoughts about this
whole affair.
Meanwhile, Blastum has been preparing a shocking grasp spell, and now he
steps forward and touches (rolls a successful “to hit” die score) Arlanni the thief,
delivering 10 points of damage (1-8 + 4). There is no saving throw: Arlanni has
only 8 hit points, and dies.
On the left, Aggro again attacks Balto with his axe. He rolls a 12 and hits him
for 5 points. Balto only had two points left, so he is dead.
Arkayn chooses to attempt to hit Gutboy Barrelhouse. The dwarf is clad in splint
mail, but he is carrying a +2 shield, so his effective armor class is 1 (though his
AC type is 3). Arkayn needs a base 17 to hit AC 1, but using a mace vs. AC
type 3 gives him a +1 armor class adjustment, so he really only needs a 16 or
better. He rolls a 7 and misses.
During this time Abner has been reading a web spell from the scroll, and now it
takes effect. The web stretches from wall to wall and entangles Gutboy, Barjin,
Blastum (who was beginning spell preparations, though now they’re ruined and
the spell is lost), and the unfortunate Arkayn, who was too near not to get
caught. All attempt saving throws, but only Gutboy Barrelhouse makes his, and
thus is only partially entangled. However, even his 17 strength will not enable
him to escape the web in time to avoid being subsequently subdued or killed by
Aggro. The melee is effectively over: Arkayn can be helped out of the web by
his friends, while Barjin and Blastum are basically helpless to avoid whatever
the player characters have in mind concerning them.
As you can see, a large number of things can happen in each round of
melee, yet this whole fight took only two minutes of game time. Some melees
will last far longer. It may seem at first as if there is a tremendous number of
confusing variables that modify the action, but you’ll be surprised at how
quickly you’ll be able to conduct a complicated melee and routinely cover
every point. An experienced DM can do it with only an occasional reference
to the tables (though it is not recommended that you try this — wait until it
comes naturally). The main thing to remember is to do everything in an
orderly, step-by-step fashion. Deal with your players’ actions and reactions
one by one instead of all at once, or you will never be able to keep track of
what round it is, and who’s doing what when.
Doctor Futurity
Hero
I remember my days with 1E, where I read the initiative rules, then picked up my worn copy of the Otus cover Basic red book, read it's initiative rule, and used that instead.
Man in the Funny Hat
Hero
See, that post up there is why I tell people not to even TRY to do 1E by-the-book, but just use whatever works for them. 1E is great - but it will FIGHT YOU at every step. 
See, that post up there is why I tell people not to even TRY to do 1E by-the-book, but just use whatever works for them. 1E is great - but it will FIGHT YOU at every step.
I referenced it before, so I should provide a link to it for those who haven't seen it.
ADDICT (Advanced Dungeons & Dragon Initiative and Combat Table) was an attempt to go through how AD&D initiative and combat was supposed to work.
You can find a copy here. Please note that this was compiled by David M. Prata, and all credit (blame?) goes to him.
I think it is useful to show how complicated it can be.
I do have a few quibbles* (BECAUSE OF COURSE, IT'S AD&D) but it shows what happens when you start to put the options "on."
*You do all of that, and then you don't put in the grappling? Or parrying?
Quickleaf
Legend
Absolutely, great summary.
The thing I'm trying to figure out is – using the basics of 1e initiative without getting too lost in the weeds (@Snarf Zagyg that 20-page document on just initiative is a testament of research, and utter insanity) – is that say the Acrobat's side has won initiative that round, so they can get their Evasion % roll. How does that interact with things like Charges or Missile Fire (which have some exceptions to the initiative rules)? For ex, Charging occurs during Movement "phase" (I know there aren't phases per se in AD&D, but it's closest term I can think of).
It seems like maybe the easiest interpretation is that it doesn't matter, if the Acrobat's side has won initiative, then any attacks against them of can potentially be evaded?
Voadam
Legend
General rule, if their side wins the d6 initiative roll the thief acrobat rolls their evasion against attacks against them just as they would magic resistance against spells against them.
Possible complications, a fighter with more than one attacks a round goes first, does the TA side still count as having initiative against the fighter's first attack which goes first before the TA side? If the TA loses initiative can they evade the attack that goes after the normal initiative ones at the end?
Charging, the DMG says do not check initiative after a charge, then it is longer weapons that strike first.
Quickleaf
Legend
Oh! Charging occurs outside of the initiative sequence? I hadn't realized that.
Yeah, for simplicity's sake - well as much as that applies for 1e initiative - I am not using that fighter multiple attack initiative complication. I get why that's there, but this is a one/two-shot for friends who want to try out 1e (and I want to experience running UK4 When a Star Falls for them), and so the more streamlined I can get it - while maintaining the core essence - it probably best.
Man in the Funny Hat
Hero
You're asking how a watch works.
I'll give you MY best understanding of the general functionality of btb 1E combat, which really starts with declaration. You need declaration because you're going to be doing a lot of determination of who is attacking whom in what way. The three most common and important attacks are melee, missile fire, and magic, and each of the one-on-one matchups of those three have different means to determine initiative (once you DO get around to rolling initiative). That is, melee vs. melee initiative priority is determined different than melee vs. spell, which is different from a CHARGE attack into a melee, which is different from missile vs. missile, and missile vs. melee, etc. Most importantly, if anyone is casting a spell, you need to know that before initiative is rolled because the casting time figures into the calculation when spells are involved.So everyone declares and you sort out what those pairings will be. THEN you roll initiative. Follow the steps listed in order on DMG p.61 (even though it doesn't include declaration as a step). So, Step 4, you take the side that won the roll and see who wants to flee (4a) - which they then DO; then see who wants to parley (4b) - which they then DO; then who is going to just wait around (4c) - which they then DO; then who is firing missiles/using magic items/casting spells (4d) which is when things get... interesting. When it comes to firing missiles - use the initiative procedure called for based on how their chosen opponent is responding. There's a procedure for missile vs. missile, missile vs. melee, and missile vs. spell. Use the correct procedure to then determine WHICH of those actually gets RESOLVED as happening first. If the individual is shooting missiles and more than one target with more than one sort of combat being performed in response then you'll have to figure out for yourself how to prioritize ANY of that because the 1E procedures only consider 1 vs. 1 special procedures. If a missile target isn't actually responding against the missile attacker with an attack of their own then resolve the missile attack as-is, and resolve whatever the target is doing at whatever step is appropriate or wait until their side's actions are otherwise all completed. As each initiative winner completes their action, if it's an attack action, then you can often just have the initiative loser respond immediately with whatever their attack is and get that out of the way, rather than wait any further (unless something else WOULD potentially interrupt their counter-attack). This is why declaration wants to determine these one-on-one pairings and the order in which you will want to resolve all of it (regardless of whether it "happens" first it may get RESOLVED with a later priority).
Once done with initiative-winning missiles, magic item usage, and cast spells, then move on to the initiative winners that are simply closing (usually to merely get into melee range for the next round) or who are making charge attacks. Closing just gets you in melee range, that's all. That individual does nothing but that. Charging means you actually get an attack (as does then the charged melee opponent unless they were hoping to brace in time to receive it) and if charging DOES put you in a melee exchange then you ignore the fact that anybody won an initiative roll and simply compare weapon length to determine which combatant strikes first. After the initiative-winning charge strike is resolved, resolve the initiative-LOSER'S melee strikes in response.
And so on, and so on.
This shows why declaration is so important. If during declaration someone realizes that they're going to be charged they can decide to set a weapon to receive that charge rather than do something else. Everybody sorts out declarations first so that when it comes time to use actual initiative procedures and combat rolls nobody ever needs to change their mind about what they wanted to do and end up "accidentally" unable to do anything. Declaration isn't supposed to be Blind-Man's-Bluff IMO, though most people think it is because the DMG at one point suggests writing your individual declaration down. I believe it's there to help you sort out which of the many detailed mechanics will end up getting used before you're committed to using them, and AVOIDING confusion about when to use them.
Note that normal melee vs. melee is pretty simple and straightforward other than when you start dealing with multiple attacks from one or both opponents. Initiative then determines mostly how those attacks are staggered back and forth with ALL but the first attack being resolved later in the round. When initiative is TIED is when melee weapons break those ties with WSF's and (if I recall) it then also affects the staggering of multiple attacks.
Going back to the use of Evasion, you just roll that when initiative is rolled FOR THEIR SIDE. If their SIDE won initiative, then evasion gets checked and applies for everything that happens for the round if successful. If the acrobat's SIDE lost initiative then they're SOL and it won't apply at all for the whole round. If evasion was successful, then whatever melee attacks, missile attacks, or applicable spells were directed at the T/A; they fail, they miss, they don't apply, or otherwise don't work. The opponents however don't get to change their minds about what they might want to TRY to do - because during declaration EVERYBODY knew that the T/A was going to be trying to evade and they made declarations to ATTEMPT to attack the T/A with that full knowledge.
Again - that's MY best functional interpretation of the BTB 1E rules, (which I do not use, both because that interpretation is not just debatable but openly disagrees with a lot of other people's interpretations, and because I have my own hopefully much easier procedure to achieve similar outcomes anyway). The BTB is still quite vague, and confusing, if not completely silent in many areas (like when multiple attacks are spread against separate opponents who all respond with different kinds of attacks of their own) and no matter what, the DM will need to fill in those gaps fairly and consistently.
