Level Up (A5E) Thoughts on Eldritch Blast options for Warlock

Tessarael said:

It's likely an oversight that Thirsting Blade wasn't written as Extra Attack. Otherwise, I could go say Fighter 5/Warlock 5, and get both Extra Attack and the additional attack from Thirsting Blade, depending on how you read it.

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IMO these count as different rules to compute how many melee attacks you can make with the Attack Action. As for AC calculation and similar, you choose which to apply, but you can't apply both.
If Thirsting Blade was conceived to synergise well with Extra Attack and multiclassing in general, I think it would have simply stated that you are considered as having the Extra attack feature.

The interaction is a little strange, but nothing in the dual-wielding rules requires that you make two weapon attacks with your main hand. And that’s hardly broken.

All level 5+ warlocks count as having Extra Attack (by virtue of Extra Blast), so they can all make two off-hand attacks if they take the attack action and make a weapon attack (even just one) while wielding a dual-wielding weapon.

Thirsting Blade doesn’t directly interact with this. It just lets you attack twice with your Pact Weapon when you take the attack action.

If your Pact Weapon is a double weapon, you can attack with it four times by using the Attack action and the Two-weapon Fighting bonus action.

Note that the melee Eldritch Blasts are spell attacks, so if you only make Eldritch Blasts with your action, you cannot use Two-weapon Fighting.

An exception is the Dread Knight with the Eldritch Maneuvers feature. While using that feature to make a combat maneuver, Eldritch Scythe and Whip count as melee weapons. That means that the conditions for Two-weapon Fighting are met, and the Warlock can use it with a dual-wielding weapon (or any one-handed weapon with the Dual Wielding Expert feat).

One last note: all Warlocks can substitute Eldritch Scythe for a single melee weapon attack, so a Warlocks with Thirsting Blade can make one Pact Weapon attack and one Eldritch Scythe attack with the Attack action, qualifying them for Two-weapon Fighting that turn.

I think the rules work together very nicely when they are put side by side, and a Blast n’ Slash Warlock is very thematic, especially for Dread Knight.

Sepulchre said:

The interaction is a little strange, but nothing in the dual-wielding rules requires that you make two weapon attacks with your main hand.

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No, but you can make 2 off-hand attacks only if you have the Extra Attack feature and you take the attack action.

Sepulchre said:

All level 5+ warlocks count as having Extra Attack (by virtue of Extra Blast), so they can all make two off-hand attacks if they take the attack action and make a weapon attack (even just one) while wielding a dual-wielding weapon.

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The wording is a bit unclear to me tbh, as I'm not sure the intention is to grant extra attack regardless of using Eldritch blasts. For how I read it, it counts as Extra attack when using Eldritch blast, but this feature alone wouldn't allow them to make additional melee attacks as Extra Attack would. Whether this would allow to make two off-hand attacks after a single melee attack because this feature counts as Extra attack is unclear to me

Sepulchre said:

Note that the melee Eldritch Blasts are spell attacks, so if you only make Eldritch Blasts with your action, you cannot use Two-weapon Fighting.

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Eldritch Scythe specifically says that substitute the melee attack with a spell attack when you take the attack action. There's no requirement for two weapon fighting about using weapon attacks or spell attacks, but only about using one handed non heavy melee weapons. The only question is whether the ephemeral blade counts as such for the primary weapon. IMO what Eldritch Scythe actually does is to change the damage type and use a different ability modifier for the attack, so one should be able to use off hand weapons when using Eldritch Scythe, but probably some clarifications from the designers would be useful

Sepulchre said:

An exception is the Dread Knight with the Eldritch Maneuvers feature. While using that feature to make a combat maneuver, Eldritch Scythe and Whip count as melee weapons. That means that the conditions for Two-weapon Fighting are met, and the Warlock can use it with a dual-wielding weapon (or any one-handed weapon with the Dual Wielding Expert feat).

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The feature says that Eldritch Scythe and Whip count as melee weapons specifically for the purpose of maneuvers learned through the same feature. So with this feature only, one does not qualify as using whip as a melee weapon for the purpose of then using two weapon fighting, IMO. Even if one used the Whip as part of a maneuver, it's unclear if it would still satisfy the requirements of it being a non heavy one handed melee weapon and thus allow for the use of two weapon fighting.

Sepulchre said:

All level 5+ warlocks count as having Extra Attack (by virtue of Extra Blast), so they can all make two off-hand attacks if they take the attack action and make a weapon attack (even just one) while wielding a dual-wielding weapon.

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Sorry, no. "Extra Blast: Beginning at 5th level, your Eldritch Blast becomes more vicious. When you use Eldritch Ray, Eldritch Scythe, or Eldritch Whip as part of your action on your turn, as long as you make no weapon attacks you can attack twice instead of once."

So you cannot use Extra Blast and two-weapon fighting at the same time.

Tessarael said:

Sorry, no. "Extra Blast: Beginning at 5th level, your Eldritch Blast becomes more vicious. When you use Eldritch Ray, Eldritch Scythe, or Eldritch Whip as part of your action on your turn, as long as you make no weapon attacks you can attack twice instead of once."

So you cannot use Extra Blast and two-weapon fighting at the same time.

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Good point, but two weapon fighting happens during a bonus action, not as an action. What's written there implies you cannot mix and match normal attacks and eldritch blast during the Attack action only.

Edit: on second thought this is probably disqualifies Extra Blast+two weapon fighting:

• if Eldritch blasts don't count as weapon attacks, no two weapon fighting as that requires that main hand attack is made with a one handed non heavy weapon
• if it does count as weapon attacks, you shouldn't be able to use the Extra blast feature (unless a "weaponified" blast only counts as a weapon attack for other purposes except for extra blast, which would be quite weird)

Of the two above, the first seems more reasonable.

Agreed. No two-weapon fighting with Eldritch Blast extra blasts, unfortunately.

I wasn’t clear. EDIT: I hit send too early.

TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING​

When you take the Attack action and attack with a weapon that does not have the heavy property that you are wielding in one hand, …

If you have the Extra Attack feature, you can use your bonus action to make two attacks with the weapon in your off-hand.

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EXTRA BLAST​

Beginning at 5th level, your Eldritch Blast becomes more vicious. When you use Eldritch Ray, Eldritch Scythe, or Eldritch Whip as part of your action on your turn, as long as you make no weapon attacks you can attack twice instead of once. …

These improvements are based on your warlock level, not your character level. This feature otherwise counts as Extra Attack (for the purpose of qualifying for feats, spell effects, and the like).

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Extra Blast does not give you the ability to make two weapon attacks. What it does enable is the ability to make two off-hand attacks if you make a weapon attack with the Attack action and use your bonus to use Two-Weapon Fighting.

If you use Extra Blast to make multiple spell attacks with the Attack action (and therefore no weapon attacks), you cannot use Two-Weapon Fighting because you haven’t attacked with a weapon.

Sepulchre said:

What it does enable is the ability to make two off-hand attacks if you make a weapon attack with the Attack action and use your bonus to use Two-Weapon Fighting.

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I see your point but I find it very odd: it would be the only case where you get more off-hand attacks than main hand attacks.

Agreed that it’s odd. Probably just an unexpected synergy, but nothing broken.

Hmm. So the argument is that with the Extra Blast counting as Extra Attack + Thirsting Blade allowing you to attack with your pact weapon twice, then you can two-weapon fight with 2 main hand attacks and 2 off-hand attacks at Warlock level 5. It's convoluted, but makes some sense. From a game balance mechanical perspective, I'd certainly allow it.