D&D (2024) More Dragon Redesign Clues

MonsterEnvy said:

These older dragons are redesigns as well, they only first showed up with 3e 24 years ago. I can’t think of a better time to try another redesign than the 50th anniversary.

Click to expand...

Not really. As I said before, most of the 3E designs are just more detailed and elaborated art of the 2E designs (and the 2E ones barely changed from 1E). Let's face it, most Monster Manual art in 1E and especially early 2E was not super detailed.

I have done this dance before because this argument always comes up, so... For example:


Horn on the tip of the nose, check, big fin-like ears, check, beige underbelly, check, spiky fins on the back, check. They just made the horn bigger for 3E and the chin more pronounced.


The head shape is pretty much the same and rather crocodilian, big fin that runs from the top of the head to the tail stayed the same. Even the more narrow belly scales and them being a more yellowish shade of green stayed on.


The big crest that runs from the end of the skull and has a fin attaching to the neck is still there, as are the layered larger scales on the neck, or even the visible nasal cavity between the eyes and the nose!


Large fin, goat-like ringed backwards pointing horns, lack of visible scales, etc...

I would say the ones that changed significantly between 2E and 3E were the Black, Brass and Gold Dragons - the latter gaining wings (which I welcomed, we already had the Lung/Chinese Dragons for the whole luck Dragon style), the former getting new curling horns and a more skull-like face, and the Brass getting the head crests split and moved to the sides of the head, and getting more fin-like wings.

It’s simply a fact that this is cumulatively the biggest single revision of the visual design of D&D dragons since the beginning of the game. Whether you dislike any significant changes full stop, or dislike these particular changes, or love them, or whatever, they are big changes.

Will these look consistent and plausible as creatures of the same type if 5.5e minis are plunked down on a tabletop next to 5e minis? That’s a concern for me, and I know it’s a concern for BBShockwave, as we are both miniature collectors.

For me, these chromatics are close enough. The biggest changes are to the metallics (other than silver, assuming the one silver picture we’ve seen is representative). The radically revised gold gets a pass because I like the new design a lot. My responses to the other three metallics range from mixed (copper, bronze) to barf (brass).

I do dislike that almost every dragon type now has an extremely long kite-like tail. It’s a fine design feature, they just gave it to too many of them.

Charlaquin said:

Personally, since I prefer my metallic dragons to be based on the 7 alchemical metals of antiquity, I’m pretty happy with the bronze design because it will be very easy to just call a copper dragon. Hopefully the brass dragon design will be similarly easy to pass off as tin.

Click to expand...

Except there is already a copper dragon?!

Out of curiosity (and the possible desire to adopt the same standard), what are the 7 alchemical metals of antiquity?

dave2008 said:

what are the 7 alchemical metals of antiquity?

Click to expand...

The seven metals of alchemy are lead, tin, iron, gold, copper, mercury (quicksilver), and silver.

Henadic Theologian said:

Don't like the changes, I like creatures to have a consistent base line unless their is a good reason for them not to.

Click to expand...

What does that mean to you? Birds are dinosaurs, but have strayed quite a bit from their roots. Theropods and Sauropods are dinosaurs, yet quite different. T-Rex looks a lot like an Allosaurs, yet the come from different branches.

Personally, the reptilian qualities of these redesigns for a base that is more consistent than the 3e designs.

We should see the rest of the Dragons this week.

BB Shockwave said:

Not really. As I said before, most of the 3E designs are just more detailed and elaborated art of the 2E designs (and the 2E ones barely changed from 1E). Let's face it, most Monster Manual art in 1E and especially early 2E was not super detailed.

I have done this dance before because this argument always comes up, so... For example:


Horn on the tip of the nose, check, big fin-like ears, check, beige underbelly, check, spiky fins on the back, check. They just made the horn bigger for 3E and the chin more pronounced.


The head shape is pretty much the same and rather crocodilian, big fin that runs from the top of the head to the tail stayed the same. Even the more narrow belly scales and them being a more yellowish shade of green stayed on.


The big crest that runs from the end of the skull and has a fin attaching to the neck is still there, as are the layered larger scales on the neck, or even the visible nasal cavity between the eyes and the nose!


Large fin, goat-like ringed backwards pointing horns, lack of visible scales, etc...

I would say the ones that changed significantly between 2E and 3E were the Black, Brass and Gold Dragons - the latter gaining wings (which I welcomed, we already had the Lung/Chinese Dragons for the whole luck Dragon style), the former getting new curling horns and a more skull-like face, and the Brass getting the head crests split and moved to the sides of the head, and getting more fin-like wings.

Click to expand...

I can't believe you included the blue as being barely changed. They went from a long graceful (and body in 1e) to a chucky body and stumpy neck. The blue was a favorite of mine in 1e and I have hated it (design wise) since the 3e revision. I am undecided about the 5e24 version (haven't seen enough), but it seems to harken back to their 1e/2e origins more than the 3e versions. Though I don't like that they got rid the ears.




If you go back to 1e, the white was changed in 3e in a similar drastic fashion as the blue: going from slender and graceful to stocky and grotesque. Not a fan of the 3e white really.




The black was also a huge change, becoming grotesque and skeletal, among other things.


And finally (because I don't care as much about the metallics) the red also changed quite a bit. However, it improved a lot - so I will forgive the change on that one!

dave2008 said:

Except there is already a copper dragon?!

Click to expand...

Oh, right… Don’t I feel silly for forgetting that

dave2008 said:

Out of curiosity (and the possible desire to adopt the same standard), what are the 7 alchemical metals of antiquity?

Click to expand...

Lead, tin, copper, iron, silver, mercury (or “quicksilver”), and gold.

dave2008 said:

Good question! I like the general trend to make them all more reptilian, but it is hard to pick simply because I am biased for red dragons. But you asked, so I would rank them as follows:

Red #1
Gold #2
Black #3
Bronze #4 (but earns most improved so far)
green #5

How about you (or anyone else)?

Click to expand...

RED DRAGON
1st place. Dude kinda looks like the love child of a grizzly bear and a saltwater crocodile (two animals I’ve always been impressed with) spray-painted red with black highlights.

I like my dragons wingless and this guy? He looks physically strong enough he doesn’t even need wings, like he could just walk up to the nearest generic fantasy city, break down the castle walls with his claws, and then set fire to the whole place with his breath weapon while arrows and magic spells bounce harmlessly off his hide.

BRONZE DRAGON
2nd place. Wrong coloration aside, this is a very aesthetically pleasing body plan IMO. Like a near-perfect blend of jaguar, horse, eagle, and lionfish (at least, to me. My eyesight isn’t the best, however).

It looks like it would be equally at home on land, in the water, and in the air.

BLACK DRAGON
3rd place. Looks like a black caiman crossed with an emaciated leopard with melanism and given the antlers/horns of some sort of prehistoric elk.

It looks halfway to lichdom and more like some kind of abomination you might find lurking in the shadowfell than anything natural.

GOLD DRAGON
4th place. Looks like a snake mixed with a catfish and a flying fish, then painted gold.

It’s elegant and otherworldly. I can totally see these guys swimming in the rivers and lakes of a fantasy china stand-in, emerging to defend the cities of allied humans.

GREEN DRAGON
5th place. I get what they were going for with this one. Really, I do. But the more I look at this design, the more I find myself thinking that the only way I would ever use this dragon is in an environment based on the wetlands of Australia’s New South Wales.



Which now that I think about it, is actually a pretty cool ecosystem concept…

dave2008 said:

I don't think I have seen enough of any of the others.

Click to expand...

Placoderm-esque White Dragon was a pretty interesting concept art, but it looks like they decided to go for a more pseudo-furred appearance.

New D&D Dragon Redesigns | 2024 Core Rulebooks | D&D #dnd #wotc #dragon #ttrpg